Criteria for who is a disciple of the Buddha - Which sutta?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
binocular
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Re: Criteria for who is a disciple of the Buddha - Which sut

Post by binocular »

Mkoll wrote:I'm not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate?
That one cannot just unilaterally decide about the meanings of words, especialy not when they are about specific relationships with other people.
E.g. If I were to claim I am your boss, that wouldn't be right, nor would it be right for you to claim you are my employee.
Etc.

Goofaholix wrote:I find that an odd view, I don't see why what one calls oneself should be so significant and I don't see why what ones actually does should not be significant.
False dichotomy; nobody suggested that "what one actually does should not be significant".
It's action and intention that is important, not mere words.
Would you think of yourself or tell anyone that you are, say, Barack Obama's private consultant? You probably wouldn't. Although you might think on occasion that you have a lot of advice that you could give him.

Any relationship exists only as long as there is a mutual agreement about it.
One cannot rightly say one is another's teacher unless that person has accepted one as a teacher. One cannot rightly say one is another's student unless one has been accepted by that person as a student.
Anyway this thread is about who is a disciple of a Buddha, not who declares himself.
Put up or shut up time, lets see a quote of the scripture you are referring to so we can discuss it properly.
This was the OP's request:
binocular wrote:I recall a sutta where the Buddha states who may rightfully consider themselves to be a disciple of the Buddha.
I've tried to find it myself, but to no avail.
Does anyone know in which sutta this is the topic?
Thank you.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Goofaholix
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Re: Criteria for who is a disciple of the Buddha - Which sut

Post by Goofaholix »

binocular wrote:False dichotomy; nobody suggested that "what one actually does should not be significant".
You mean like this...
binocular wrote:A person may easily be worthy to be a disciple of the Buddha, even if they have occasional bouts of raping, killing and pillaging.
binocular wrote:Any relationship exists only as long as there is a mutual agreement about it.
One cannot rightly say one is another's teacher unless that person has accepted one as a teacher. One cannot rightly say one is another's student unless one has been accepted by that person as a student.
This is true of course when that teacher is alive, after that teacher has passed away they can't provide that acceptance so we have to rely on living up to the spirit of that persons teachings.

Your recollection of the sutta that you are asking for doesn't really sound to me like being in the spirit of the Buddhas teachings, so unless somebody else has heard of it I don't know what to tell you.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Feathers
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Re: Criteria for who is a disciple of the Buddha - Which sut

Post by Feathers »

I'd tend to agree with Binocular that you can't just randomly assign meaning or claim any relationship, but at the same time I'm not wild about coming up with a hard-and-fast rule of what it means to be a Buddhist. I'd like to suggest an alternative concept of what it means to be a follower of a religion: you are not declaring a relationship with Buddha/Jesus/God etc., rather, you are declaring your identity as something.

So for example I would say I am a computer programmer. Now if I'd never typed a line of code in my life, you could challenge me on that, but the fact I program in JavaScript and do front end web dev, while you program in Prolog and work in resource management for an airline, doesn't make either of us NOT a computer programmer.

Similarly, you can have a pretty wide range of behaviours, beliefs and practices, and still 'fit' the Buddhist label. If you don't believe the Buddha ever existed, or think the four noble truths are nonsense, then you're maybe pushing it, but if you hold those opinions you're probably not interested in labeling yourself a Buddhist anyway.

Point is, identity labels are pretty broad, you can have quite a wide range of people who all fit comfortably in one label.
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Mkoll
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Re: Criteria for who is a disciple of the Buddha - Which sut

Post by Mkoll »

binocular wrote:
Mkoll wrote:I'm not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate?
That one cannot just unilaterally decide about the meanings of words, especialy not when they are about specific relationships with other people.
E.g. If I were to claim I am your boss, that wouldn't be right, nor would it be right for you to claim you are my employee.
Etc.
This:
Goofaholix wrote:This is true of course when that teacher is alive, after that teacher has passed away they can't provide that acceptance so we have to rely on living up to the spirit of that persons teachings.
If the Buddha were alive, I could ask him: "in what ways is one a disciple of the Buddha?"

He's not alive so I have to figure out what it means to be a disciple myself.

:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
binocular
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Re: Criteria for who is a disciple of the Buddha - Which sut

Post by binocular »

Goofaholix wrote:
binocular wrote:False dichotomy; nobody suggested that "what one actually does should not be significant".
You mean like this...
binocular wrote:A person may easily be worthy to be a disciple of the Buddha, even if they have occasional bouts of raping, killing and pillaging.
It's not significant in terms of being accepted as a disciple of the Buddha. Angulimala is a prime example.
From what I understood, Buddhism isn't the kind of religion where a person would be forever banished and disqualified from it for something they have done in the past. As long as the person is willing to change their ways and does so, they are eligible for the practice. Even if they may have several fall-downs during a lifetime. As long as they pick themselves up and get back on track, they are eligible for the practice.

In contrast, ordinary worldly society is nowhere near as forgiving and generous. There, sometimes even just one mistake in one's youth can tarnish one's reputation forever and prevent one from ever being seen and accepted as a decent citizen.

This is true of course when that teacher is alive, after that teacher has passed away they can't provide that acceptance so we have to rely on living up to the spirit of that persons teachings.
Of course.
There is also the living tradition, the unbroken lineage of teachers.
Your recollection of the sutta that you are asking for doesn't really sound to me like being in the spirit of the Buddhas teachings, so unless somebody else has heard of it I don't know what to tell you.
I guess I'll just have to keep on reading, to find it again.

Mkoll wrote:If the Buddha were alive, I could ask him: "in what ways is one a disciple of the Buddha?"

He's not alive so I have to figure out what it means to be a disciple myself.
In that sense, of course.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
pavankadam50
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Re: Criteria for who is a disciple of the Buddha - Which sutta?

Post by pavankadam50 »

The criteria for who is considered a disciple of the Buddha can be found in the "Cunda Kammaraputta Sutta," which is also known as the "Cunda the Silversmith Discourse." This sutta is part of the Anguttara Nikaya, a collection of discourses in the Pali Canon, which is the primary scriptural canon of Theravada Buddhism.

Read more Buddha Quotes: https://www.blogkiat.com/buddha-quotes/
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