Criteria for who is a disciple of the Buddha - Which sutta?

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Goofaholix
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Re: Criteria for who is a disciple of the Buddha - Which sut

Post by Goofaholix »

binocular wrote:It's in a tone similar to AN 2.23:
Not at all, that quote is about spreading false teaching, the consequences aren't explained other than it's slander to do so.

The wording you originally posted advised that one small mistake not in line with the Dhamma and you'd never worthy calling yourself a disciple of the Buddha.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
daverupa
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Re: Criteria for who is a disciple of the Buddha - Which sut

Post by daverupa »

binocular wrote:I don't see how the second part of the Patoda Sutta fits with the first one.
Each part per se makes sense to me, but the comparison eludes me.
There's seeing the hint of a goad-stick, and there's feeling the goad-stick to lesser, middling, and greater amounts. These are the four cases in which a horse, having experienced the goad-stick to one of these degrees, ends up in a state where they are amenable to the training.

So, hearing about pain & death is a goad-stick's shadow. The lesser, middling, and greater aspects are seeing the pain & death of any body, the body of a close relation, or one's own body. In each case the increasing discomfort of the goad-stick (to wit, awareness of mortality, etc.) is made more and more salient, more and more direct.

In each case, one who is motivated such that they are "stirred & agitated by that. Stirred, he becomes appropriately resolute. Resolute, he both realizes with his body the highest truth and, having penetrated it with discernment, sees" is an excellent thoroughbred.

:focus:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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manas
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Re: Criteria for who is a disciple of the Buddha - Which sut

Post by manas »

There is a sutta where three kinds of noble disciples are described, the faith follower, the dhamma follower, and the stream enterer. Although the first two types were only said to be on the way to stream entry, and not as having achieved it as yet, they were nevertheless said to have "transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill", if memory serves me correct.
:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Mkoll
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Re: Criteria for who is a disciple of the Buddha - Which sut

Post by Mkoll »

manas wrote:There is a sutta where three kinds of noble disciples are described, the faith follower, the dhamma follower, and the stream enterer. Although the first two types were only said to be on the way to stream entry, and not as having achieved it as yet, they were nevertheless said to have "transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill", if memory serves me correct.
:anjali:
At the end of MN 22, the Buddha describes the four saints, Dhamma and faith followers, and those with sufficient faith in him.
"In the Dhamma thus well-proclaimed by me — clear, open, evident, stripped of rags — those monks who have abandoned the three fetters, are all stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening. This is how the Dhamma well-proclaimed by me is clear, open, evident, stripped of rags.

"In the Dhamma thus well-proclaimed by me — clear, open, evident, stripped of rags — those monks who are Dhamma-followers and conviction-followers [18] are all headed for self-awakening. This is how the Dhamma well-proclaimed by me is clear, open, evident, stripped of rags.

"In the Dhamma thus well-proclaimed by me — clear, open, evident, stripped of rags — those monks who have a [sufficient] measure of conviction in me, a [sufficient] measure of love for me, are all headed for heaven. This is how the Dhamma well-proclaimed by me is clear, open, evident, stripped of rags."
:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
SarathW
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Re: Criteria for who is a disciple of the Buddha - Which sut

Post by SarathW »

I think anyone keep Nirvana as its objective is a disciple of the Buddha.
I think the first refuge “Buddham Saranam Gacchami” means that “ I keep Nirvana as my objective”.
If someone does not believe there is Nirvana he is not a disciple of Buddha.
:idea:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
binocular
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Re: Criteria for who is a disciple of the Buddha - Which sut

Post by binocular »

Goofaholix wrote:Not at all, that quote is about spreading false teaching, the consequences aren't explained other than it's slander to do so.
It is often said that the consequences of wrong view are hell or the animal womb.
The wording you originally posted advised that one small mistake not in line with the Dhamma and you'd never worthy calling yourself a disciple of the Buddha.
Considering that the Dhamma is rare and precious, one ought to not take it in vain.
So it's seems to be already a matter of common decency to not make light about the Dhamma in any way, and that includes not making light about who is a disciple of the Buddha and who isn't.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Mkoll
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Re: Criteria for who is a disciple of the Buddha - Which sut

Post by Mkoll »

binocular wrote:So it's seems to be already a matter of common decency to not make light about the Dhamma in any way, and that includes not making light about who is a disciple of the Buddha and who isn't.
wikipedia page: early buddhist schools wrote:The accounts of the council in the scriptures of the schools differ as to what was actually recited there. Venerable Purāṇa is recorded as having said: "Your reverences, well chanted by the elders are the Dhamma and Vinaya, but in that way that I heard it in the Lord's presence, that I received it in his presence, in that same way will I bear it in mind." [Vinaya-pitaka: Cullavagga XI:1:11].
binocular,

There wasn't even consensus in the first council over 2000 years ago. Do you actually think you're going to find it today?

Figure out what it means to be a disciple of the Buddha...yourself.

:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Goofaholix
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Re: Criteria for who is a disciple of the Buddha - Which sut

Post by Goofaholix »

binocular wrote:Considering that the Dhamma is rare and precious, one ought to not take it in vain.
So it's seems to be already a matter of common decency to not make light about the Dhamma in any way, and that includes not making light about who is a disciple of the Buddha and who isn't.
I don't have a problem with that, but your original post said "And if you ever, even just for a moment, fail to keep in line with the Dhamma, you're not worthy calling yourself a disciple of the Buddha.". So if I ever crave chocolate for example, craving as we all know is not in line with the Dhamma, so that would mean I'm not worthy to be the Buddhas disciple.

I don't believe you'll find the Buddha ever encouraging such a puritanical view.

However it appears you may have clarified your original statement as being about "making light" rather than being imperfect.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
binocular
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Re: Criteria for who is a disciple of the Buddha - Which sut

Post by binocular »

Goofaholix wrote:
binocular wrote:Considering that the Dhamma is rare and precious, one ought to not take it in vain.
So it's seems to be already a matter of common decency to not make light about the Dhamma in any way, and that includes not making light about who is a disciple of the Buddha and who isn't.
I don't have a problem with that, but your original post said "And if you ever, even just for a moment, fail to keep in line with the Dhamma, you're not worthy calling yourself a disciple of the Buddha.". So if I ever crave chocolate for example, craving as we all know is not in line with the Dhamma, so that would mean I'm not worthy to be the Buddhas disciple.

I don't believe you'll find the Buddha ever encouraging such a puritanical view.

However it appears you may have clarified your original statement as being about "making light" rather than being imperfect.
Note my original formulation:
"And if you ever, even just for a moment, fail to keep in line with the Dhamma, you're not worthy calling yourself a disciple of the Buddha."

A person may easily be worthy to be a disciple of the Buddha, even if they have occasional bouts of raping, killing and pillaging.

But to go around declaring one is a disciple of the Buddha is an entirely different matter.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
binocular
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Re: Criteria for who is a disciple of the Buddha - Which sut

Post by binocular »

Mkoll wrote:Figure out what it means to be a disciple of the Buddha...yourself.
I'm sorry, but that sounds like the Humpty Dumpty argument -

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
daverupa
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Re: Criteria for who is a disciple of the Buddha - Which sut

Post by daverupa »

binocular wrote:Note my original formulation:
Never did find this in a sutta, though, did we?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
binocular
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Re: Criteria for who is a disciple of the Buddha - Which sut

Post by binocular »

So far.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
daverupa
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Re: Criteria for who is a disciple of the Buddha - Which sut

Post by daverupa »

binocular wrote:So far.
Any other key words you'd like to suggest?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Mkoll
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Re: Criteria for who is a disciple of the Buddha - Which sut

Post by Mkoll »

binocular wrote:
Mkoll wrote:Figure out what it means to be a disciple of the Buddha...yourself.
I'm sorry, but that sounds like the Humpty Dumpty argument -

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."
I'm not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate?

:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Goofaholix
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Re: Criteria for who is a disciple of the Buddha - Which sut

Post by Goofaholix »

binocular wrote:A person may easily be worthy to be a disciple of the Buddha, even if they have occasional bouts of raping, killing and pillaging.

But to go around declaring one is a disciple of the Buddha is an entirely different matter.
I find that an odd view, I don't see why what one calls oneself should be so significant and I don't see why what ones actually does should not be significant.

It's action and intention that is important, not mere words.

Anyway this thread is about who is a disciple of a Buddha, not who declares himself.

Put up or shut up time, lets see a quote of the scripture you are referring to so we can discuss it properly.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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