What is the meaning of Paramattha?

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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robertk
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Post by robertk »

Sound is real(but empheral). Sound seems to last for a split second or longer, but actually there are many different sounds - maybe very close in character- that are arising and passing away even during a split second.
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lyndon taylor
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Post by lyndon taylor »

My primitive understanding of Paramatta is it is still a suburb of Sydney, very close to Dundas where I was raised!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

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SarathW
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Post by SarathW »

Good one Lyndon. I never noticed it. “H” is not silent in my language. :)

By the way Robert, the sound is the result of lute which is not real. So how an unreal object produce real sounds?

What do you mean by real?
I think this (Paramattha/real etc) is just a relative statement.
The ultimate objective of Abhidhamma is to understand Anatta.
So if we understand by any means, I think that is the ultimate and the bottom line.
Thank you all for your contributions.
:)
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MidGe
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Post by MidGe »

In regard to house:
What is real/exist is the aggregate hence the house (convention).
So no bricks, timber or tiles exist/real

In regard to brick:
What is real/exist is the aggregate hence the brick (convention)
So no sands, cement etc exist/real
Am I correct?
Not quite... you are introducing a side effect by taking sands and cements as making up the brick. There are only the four great elements or essentials that are making up the cement (ultimately the sand and therefore the brick as well). These are real or are what you ought to think as paramatthas.

The four essentials are sometimes known as cohesion, solidity, heat and motion.
SarathW
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Post by SarathW »

Hi MidGee
Please read Page 184 of the following link to see the way I undeestand Paramattha:

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books9/Nyana ... tudies.pdf
:)
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mikenz66
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi SarathW,

I'm not clear what exactly on page 184 you are referring to. Perhaps you are working from a version with different page numbers? It might be helpful if you copied the start of the passage you are recommending.

:anjali:
Mike
SarathW
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Post by SarathW »

Hi Mike
The way I understand that, there is no an ultimate unchangeable element of existence.
Everything is subject to dependent origination.
Every thing is subject to impermanence and insubstantiality.

As a human it is enough for us to know that the five aggregate is the ultimate conceivable component of our existence.
With that knowledge we can realise Anatta and make our way to the liberation.

:)
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SarathW
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Post by SarathW »

You look at a river and you think the water is always
there. You know that every second there is new water flowing.
There are many similes to demonstrate the ultimate truth and
the conventional truth. These are just some of the similes. For
example, a car, we say that a car is a convention and the parts
are ultimate truth. Of course even the parts are not ultimate
truth yet. If you break it down to the smallest particle, that
particle is the ultimate truth. The smallest particle of matter is
the ultimate truth.

Page 39
http://buddhispano.net/sites/default/fi ... dies-I.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Post by SarathW »

Good article about this question:

Now the use of the two words, saccikattha and paramattha (" real and ultimate" )
as indicative of the nature of dhammas seems to give the impression that in denying
the reality of the person the Theravadins have overstressed the reality of the
dhammas. Does this amount to the admission that the dhammas are real and
discrete entities existing in their own right? Such a conclusion, it appears to us, is
not tenable.

Page 8:
http://www.stefan.gr/buddhism/books/abh ... theory.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Bakmoon
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Post by Bakmoon »

It is a term used in the context of the two truths, and it is the antonym to the term Sammuti, which means conventional.

According to my understanding, ultimate reality is that which is directly experienced, and conventional reality is conceptual. To borrow your example of a house, the ultimate reality is the set of experiences which you have, such as the seeing, hearing, smelling, and touching of the house (you could include taste here, but I don't know of many people who lick their houses).

Based on these experiences which arise and cease, the mind generalizes a concept, in this case the concept of house, and this concept of house doesn't exist as a direct experience, so you can't call it ultimate reality. You can't say categorically there isn't a house however, as the concept of house is based on experience and is consistent with direct experience, so we say that it exists, but in a different sense. That is to say, we say the house exists in a conventional sense.

That's how I understand the distinction between ultimate and conventional reality anyways. There are probably other and more precise definitions out there, but I think this is a good practical way of understanding it.
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The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.
jagodage
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Post by jagodage »

The dialogue regarding meaning of Paramatta Dharma.

It is very interesting discussion.

Since I joined recently only now I was able to read.The understanding an experience of Sammuthi and Paramattha Dharama is the 1st stepping stone in entering Vipassana Meditation.

The subject matter of this concept is relative.In this sense the Theory of Relativity has some relevance to this subject. We are tiny speck of our Galaxy.And atom consist of electron, proton and neutron.The relative distances more or less similar in both.

Therefore we should consider only what is minimum necessity to achieve ultimate Goal.It is by wisdom one should choose the necessity.This discussion throws some light on wisdom.

With Metta
:anjali:
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thomaslaw
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Post by thomaslaw »

Dear Dhamma friends,

Having read your postings regarding the notion/concept of Paramattha, and the information of this notion shown in Abhidhammattha Sangaha 'Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma', p. 25, it is very likely that the teachings of Paramattha (and its connection with Pa~n~natti 'Concept') are obviously 'not' supported by the suttas, such as the SN suttas (cf. Choong MK, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 54, 92, 138 (on 'pa~n~naapeti'), 154).
E.g. the five aggregates (according to the SN suttas) should be seen as they realy are as 'void (without reality, rittaka), insubstantial (tucchaka), and lacking essence (asaaraka)' (SN 22.95: PTS, iii, 140-143), because they (the five aggregates) are phenomena (dhammas) arisen by causal condition ('not' by their own right as 'irreducible' realities/components of existence), having the nature (dhamma) of anicca 'impermanence', nirodha 'cessation' (SN 12.20: PTS ii, 25-27).

Regards,

Thomas
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mikenz66
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Thomas,

I think that may be an over interpretation of the terms. See this discussion, for example:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p269377

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Mike
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Post by thomaslaw »

HI Mike,

>M: I think that may be an over interpretation of the terms. See this discussion, for example:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p269377

I am unable to see it is an over interpretation of the trems I mentioned here. Also, the term paramattha and its idealistic, systematic meanings are simply 'not' found in the suttas (particularly the SN suttas).

Regards,

Thomas
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mikenz66
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Post by mikenz66 »

Have you read the references that Tiltbillings gave in the link I gave above, particularly the book by Ven Nyanaponika: ABHIDHAMMA STUDIES?

Please note that this is the Abhidhamma section, which is about clarifying the meaning of the Abhidhamma. Arguments that simply dismiss the Abhidhamma belong in The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate.

Guidelines for the Abhidhamma forum

:anjali:
Mike
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