masturbation what's wrong?

Some topics tend to get heated and go off track in unwholesome ways quite quickly. The "hot topics" sub-forum is a place where such topics may be moved so that each post must be manually approved by moderator before it will become visible to members.

Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Dhammabodhi » Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:39 pm

Hi, sorry if I'm going off-topic a little here, but I have a question regarding sexual fantasies in dreams and involuntary nocturnal emissions. I'd like to know what Buddhist scriptures have said about this(if at all) for someone who is completely abstaining from the point of view of ethics and Sila, but the thing I'm more interested to know is how do monks(or anyone else who's keeping the relevant precepts) deal with it and whether there are techniques to reduce or eradicate this problem?

Generalizing the above, what about dreams with one being violent or with other unwholesome actions? Again, sorry for being :offtopic:

Thanks in advance,
Dhammabodhi
-Samāhitam cittam yathābhutam pajānāti.

समाहितं चित्तं यथाभूतं पजानाती |

A concentrated mind sees things as they really are.

-Ujuko nāma so maggo, abhayā nāma sā disā.

उजुको नाम सो माग्गो, अभया नाम सा दिसा |

'Straight' is this path, fearlessness is its way.
User avatar
Dhammabodhi
 
Posts: 205
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 12:25 pm
Location: Rome, Italy

Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Individual » Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:50 pm

Dhammabodhi wrote:Hi, sorry if I'm going off-topic a little here, but I have a question regarding sexual fantasies in dreams and involuntary nocturnal emissions. I'd like to know what Buddhist scriptures have said about this(if at all) for someone who is completely abstaining from the point of view of ethics and Sila, but the thing I'm more interested to know is how do monks(or anyone else who's keeping the relevant precepts) deal with it and whether there are techniques to reduce or eradicate this problem?

I don't believe scriptures explicitly describe sexual fantasies or nocturnal emissions. Points-of-view are based on commentaries, which derive various implications from the suttas. I believe that traditional Theravada commentaries regard sexual fantasies in dreams and nocturnal emissions as a mildly unwholesome action that ceases to occur for an Arahant, whose mind is fully purified. Eradicating sub-conscious sexual fantasies, though, among a layperson is not a reasonable goal.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
Individual
 
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby kc2dpt » Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:47 pm

tiltbillings wrote:His take on lay sexuality in general leave something to be desired

Pun intended?
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
User avatar
kc2dpt
 
Posts: 956
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby kc2dpt » Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:48 pm

Dhammabodhi wrote:I have a question regarding sexual fantasies in dreams and involuntary nocturnal emissions. I'd like to know what Buddhist scriptures have said about this(if at all) for someone who is completely abstaining from the point of view of ethics and Sila

I seem to recall there are rules in the Vinaya concerning this.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
User avatar
kc2dpt
 
Posts: 956
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:49 pm

Peter wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:His take on lay sexuality in general leave something to be desired

Pun intended?


Of course.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19417
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby kc2dpt » Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:51 pm

44 posts and 3 days later and the OP hasn't come by to clarify their question. Glad I didn't waste time with it. Sorry to see you fine folks getting yourselves tied in knots over what you think they might have been asking. :(
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
User avatar
kc2dpt
 
Posts: 956
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Dhammakid » Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:16 am

I see that happening quite often on discussion boards. Oh well, nothing wrong with a good conversation.

:anjali:
Dhammakid
User avatar
Dhammakid
 
Posts: 366
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:09 am
Location: Georgia, USA

Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Ben » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:23 am

Hi Peter
Peter wrote:44 posts and 3 days later and the OP hasn't come by to clarify their question. Glad I didn't waste time with it. Sorry to see you fine folks getting yourselves tied in knots over what you think they might have been asking. :(

No knots tied or untied!
Kind regards

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16079
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Land of the sleeping gods

Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby BlackBird » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:48 am

Here's the facts:

- Masturbation is built upon Sensual desire. Good luck having a beat while considering how best to mow the lawn and hang out the washing.
- Sensual desire is a hinderance to practise.
- Kamma-Vipaka has it that a volitional action in the present will have an effect in the future. This is how habits are formed.

Nobody is going to burn in hell for having a beat, nor for having appropriate sexual relations with their partner - But it doesn't lead to Nibbana. Sensual desire is a hinderance.

:anjali:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
User avatar
BlackBird
 
Posts: 1861
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:10 am

BlackBird wrote:- Sensual desire is a hinderance to practise.


It may be a hindrance, but that does not mean it has to hinder anything.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19417
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby puthujjana » Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:02 am

Dhammabodhi wrote:Hi, sorry if I'm going off-topic a little here, but I have a question regarding sexual fantasies in dreams and involuntary nocturnal emissions. I'd like to know what Buddhist scriptures have said about this(if at all) for someone who is completely abstaining from the point of view of ethics and Sila, but the thing I'm more interested to know is how do monks(or anyone else who's keeping the relevant precepts) deal with it and whether there are techniques to reduce or eradicate this problem?


Hi Dhammabodhi,

this is the first Saṅghādisesa rule:
Intentional emission of semen, except while dreaming, entails initial and subsequent meetings of the Community.

You can read Thanissaro Bhikkhu's explanation of it in chapter five of Buddhist Monastic Code I: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .ch05.html

:anjali:
"Once you understand anatta, then the burden of life is gone. You’ll be at peace with the world. When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness and we can truly be happy."
- Ajahn Chah
User avatar
puthujjana
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:13 am
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Macavity » Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:20 am

tiltbillings wrote:
BlackBird wrote:- Sensual desire is a hinderance to practise.


It may be a hindrance, but that does not mean it has to hinder anything.


That doesn't sound right to me. If it's a hindrance then surely by definition it must hinder something. In the Nivaranasutta, SN. v. 97, the Buddha says of the five hindrances that they are "Makers of blindness, causing lack of vision, causing lack of knowledge, detrimental to wisdom, tending to vexation, leading away from Nibbana."

I take this to mean that hindering is an intrinsic property of the hindrances. 'Makers of blindness' is what the hindrances actually are, not something they might be. 'Leading away from Nibbana' is what the hindrances actually do, not something they might do.

How do you understand the passage?
User avatar
Macavity
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:36 am
Location: Thailand

Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:33 am

What is the nature of a hindrance?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19417
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby cooran » Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:43 am

Exactly what do you mean by "nature"?

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
cooran
 
Posts: 7534
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:44 am

sabhava.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19417
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Macavity » Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:54 am

tiltbillings wrote:What is the nature of a hindrance?


In the case of sensual desire, the first hindrance, its characteristic is to grasp an object belonging to the sensual sphere, its function is to adhere to that object like meat to a hot pan, its manifestation is not relinquishing its object, its proximate cause is the improper attention that sees the enjoyment but not the peril in sense-sphere pleasures.
User avatar
Macavity
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:36 am
Location: Thailand

Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:55 am

Is a hindrance an unchanging thing?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19417
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Macavity » Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:56 am

If you mean the nature that is shared by all the hindrances, see the above quote from the Nivaranasutta.
User avatar
Macavity
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:36 am
Location: Thailand

Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Macavity » Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:57 am

tiltbillings wrote:Is a hindrance an unchanging thing?


No. Like all condioned phenomena they arise, perform their function, and pass away.
User avatar
Macavity
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:36 am
Location: Thailand

Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Dhammabodhi » Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:27 pm

Thanks to those who've replied to my query. :anjali:
Individual wrote: Eradicating sub-conscious sexual fantasies, though, among a layperson is not a reasonable goal.

I only meant eradication for those who keep the relevant precepts, i.e. monks and laity who decide to abstain completely from any sexual activity.
Surely for these people it would be quite a bother to have to "see", time and again, the temptations that they want to get away from(related question: is it possible to just "observe" dreams)?
That's why, like I said before, I'm interested to know how people deal with it in practical terms. Or whether it is true that these people(monks and lay celibates) could be plagued with sexuality and nocturnal emissions in dreams but they don't/can't do anything about it unless they become Arahants?

I hope I'm not hijacking this thread for my own questions.
Metta,
Dhammabodhi
-Samāhitam cittam yathābhutam pajānāti.

समाहितं चित्तं यथाभूतं पजानाती |

A concentrated mind sees things as they really are.

-Ujuko nāma so maggo, abhayā nāma sā disā.

उजुको नाम सो माग्गो, अभया नाम सा दिसा |

'Straight' is this path, fearlessness is its way.
User avatar
Dhammabodhi
 
Posts: 205
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 12:25 pm
Location: Rome, Italy

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dhamma Hot Topics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests