Interesting view. So where do you think insight fits in?mogg wrote: The clue is in the descriptions of Nibbana. The samatha-ing of all kamma formations. Its all about samatha.
The path is a progressive letting go towards cessation. The intermediary stages are the jhanas.
The Great Jhana Debate
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Re: Buddhism cult
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate
Who says they are "absorption factors"?Spiny Norman wrote:But the suttas specifically describe the absorption factors of jhana. What basis is there for equating these absorption factors with the four frames of reference?Kumara wrote: I too used to wonder about this. Later, once I get the idea that sutta jhanas aren't the Vm absorption type, I realised that the answer is clear as day: It's the four satipatthana, with the support of all other factors of the N8P of course.
Besides, who's equating them?
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.htmlKumara wrote:Who says they are "absorption factors"?Spiny Norman wrote:But the suttas specifically describe the absorption factors of jhana. What basis is there for equating these absorption factors with the four frames of reference?Kumara wrote: I too used to wonder about this. Later, once I get the idea that sutta jhanas aren't the Vm absorption type, I realised that the answer is clear as day: It's the four satipatthana, with the support of all other factors of the N8P of course.
Besides, who's equating them?
You're comment above seems to be equating the sutta jhanas with the four satipatthana - or wasn't that what you meant?
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate
OIC. Note that the only place where "absorption" occurs there is in the title. It's not in the sutta. Also, the sutta doesn't speak of "factors". It provides descriptions of the 4 meditative states.Spiny Norman wrote:http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.htmlKumara wrote:Who says they are "absorption factors"?Spiny Norman wrote:But the suttas specifically describe the absorption factors of jhana. What basis is there for equating these absorption factors with the four frames of reference?
Besides, who's equating them?
Nope. I was answering to the question on "clear concise instructions" in the Suttas for achieving jhanas. Dhammanupassana in particular brings about the abandonment of the 5 hindrances to make 1st jhana possible.Spiny Norman wrote:You're comment above seems to be equating the sutta jhanas with the four satipatthana - or wasn't that what you meant?
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate
The factors are described here for example in MN43, the Mahavedalla Sutta. Effectively the 5 factors of jhana "displace" the 5 hindrances:Kumara wrote:Also, the sutta doesn't speak of "factors". It provides descriptions of the 4 meditative states.
The first jhana
"What, friend, is the first jhana?"
"There is the case, friend, where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. This is called the first jhana."
"And how many factors does the first jhana have?"
"The first jhana has five factors. There is the case where, in a monk who has attained the five-factored first jhana, there occurs directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, & singleness of mind. It's in this way that the first jhana has five factors.""And how many factors are abandoned in the first jhana, and with how many is it endowed?"
"Five factors are abandoned in the first jhana, and with five is it endowed. There is the case where, in a monk who has attained the first jhana, sensual desire is abandoned, ill will is abandoned, sloth & torpor is abandoned, restlessness & anxiety is abandoned, uncertainty is abandoned. And there occur directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, & singleness of mind. It's in this way that five factors are abandoned in the first jhana, and with five it is endowed."
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate
Ya, I know about this one. In Anupada Sutta (MN111), we can see many more "factors". These seems to be the beginnings of the abhidhammika way of thought.Spiny Norman wrote:The factors are described here for example in MN43, the Mahavedalla Sutta.Kumara wrote:Also, the sutta doesn't speak of "factors". It provides descriptions of the 4 meditative states.
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate
I don't know about that, but the 5 factors seem to occur repeatedly in sutta descriptions of jhana, with the factors progressively "dropping off" as one goes from 1st to 4th jhana. And I think the relationship between these 5 factors and the 5 hindrances is significant. I've also noticed a correlation between the 5 factors and the 7 factors of enlightenment.Kumara wrote:Ya, I know about this one. In Anupada Sutta (MN111), we can see many more "factors". These seems to be the beginnings of the abhidhammika way of thought.Spiny Norman wrote:The factors are described here for example in MN43, the Mahavedalla Sutta.Kumara wrote:Also, the sutta doesn't speak of "factors". It provides descriptions of the 4 meditative states.
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate
Hi,Kumara wrote:Ya, I know about this one. In Anupada Sutta (MN111), we can see many more "factors". These seems to be the beginnings of the abhidhammika way of thought.Spiny Norman wrote:The factors are described here for example in MN43, the Mahavedalla Sutta.Kumara wrote:Also, the sutta doesn't speak of "factors". It provides descriptions of the 4 meditative states.
Does anybody knows of other suttas like MN 111 that are describing the factors to be seen while in the Jhanas?
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Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5
Re: The Great Jhana Debate
I wonder if someone could help me understand one aspect of this debate, touched upon in this thread and elsewhere. Please excuse my ignorance if this has been addressed in this topic already.
Basically "vivicceva kāmehi" has been used to show jhana as being a state removed from the 5 senses, if I understand correctly. This hinges on kāmā meaning sense objects rather than sensual desire/sensuality ect. Does this necessarily refer to being cut off from 5 sense experience entirely, rather couldn't it refer to having guarded sense gates?
Basically "vivicceva kāmehi" has been used to show jhana as being a state removed from the 5 senses, if I understand correctly. This hinges on kāmā meaning sense objects rather than sensual desire/sensuality ect. Does this necessarily refer to being cut off from 5 sense experience entirely, rather couldn't it refer to having guarded sense gates?
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate
Hi CoyoteCoyote wrote:I wonder if someone could help me understand one aspect of this debate, touched upon in this thread and elsewhere. Please excuse my ignorance if this has been addressed in this topic already.
Basically "vivicceva kāmehi" has been used to show jhana as being a state removed from the 5 senses, if I understand correctly. This hinges on kāmā meaning sense objects rather than sensual desire/sensuality ect. Does this necessarily refer to being cut off from 5 sense experience entirely, rather couldn't it refer to having guarded sense gates?
Both points of view exist, one is the absorption jhana and the other is the insight jhana, Ajahn Brams goes for the absorption while Thanissaro and Vimalaramsi go for the insight while in the Jhana, MN 111 seems to defend the insight jhana but it has being singled as a late addition by Bhiky Sujato in his "A history of mindfulness":
"...But the Anupada Sutta is clearly late. It consists chiefly of stock phrases and technical terms; if these are left out there are
only a few lines that make up the characteristic vocabulary of the Anupada Sutta. These lines include at least three words suggestive of a late idiom
(anupada, vavattheti, and pāramī). In addition, the text is poorly edited. The jhāna factors are listed, as per the usual Sutta idiom, with the conjunctive
particle ca. But the remaining factors are listed in the Abhidhamma style with no ca; they have clearly been inserted from another source."
However the same author in his "A swift pair of messengers":
"One passage speaks of a monk establishing the ‘mind one-pointed in samādhi’ while in all four postures, including walking.14 This would
seem to be difficult to square with the usual understanding of jhāna, although it would not necessarily directly contradict anything in the suttas." AN 4:12 http://suttacentral.net/en/an4.12" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And
"The path of samatha and vipassanā yoked equally is explicitly identified in only one place. MN 149.9"
I have been in absorption jhana and is great but you don't learn much, I now practice the Insight Jhana where I learn more things while in it.
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dhammarelax
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5
Re: The Great Jhana Debate
dhammarelax,
Thanks for responding. I realise that there is a lot of complicated textual study behind either of the two viewpoints. One could probably find a basis for either idea in the canon depending on what sources one takes as authoritative or early, and seen with Bhikkhu Sujato. It's an interesting subject and not one I feel comfortable in coming to my own conclusions about just yet. I just wonder whether, from a language pov, vivicca always or usually means completely cut off from, or if there is room for it to refer to guarded senses.
Thanks for responding. I realise that there is a lot of complicated textual study behind either of the two viewpoints. One could probably find a basis for either idea in the canon depending on what sources one takes as authoritative or early, and seen with Bhikkhu Sujato. It's an interesting subject and not one I feel comfortable in coming to my own conclusions about just yet. I just wonder whether, from a language pov, vivicca always or usually means completely cut off from, or if there is room for it to refer to guarded senses.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate
Hi CoyoteCoyote wrote:dhammarelax,
Thanks for responding. I realise that there is a lot of complicated textual study behind either of the two viewpoints. One could probably find a basis for either idea in the canon depending on what sources one takes as authoritative or early, and seen with Bhikkhu Sujato. It's an interesting subject and not one I feel comfortable in coming to my own conclusions about just yet. I just wonder whether, from a language pov, vivicca always or usually means completely cut off from, or if there is room for it to refer to guarded senses.
I am afraid my knowledge of Pali is very limited, I have no clue.
Smile all the time
Dhammarelax
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5
Re: The Great Jhana Debate
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa