The causes for wisdom

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:26 pm

in the section on the development of vipassana in Vism.xx
13. “First it has to be seen by inference according to the texts. Afterwards it gradually comes to be seen by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets stronger” (Vism-mhþ 790).
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby ancientbuddhism » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:50 pm

robertk wrote:in the section on the development of vipassana in Vism.xx
13. “First it has to be seen by inference according to the texts. Afterwards it gradually comes to be seen by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets stronger” (Vism-mhþ 790).



So says Buddhaghosa.
Fingers walk the darkness down
Mind is on the midnight
Gather up the gold you've found
You fool, it's only moonlight.
If you try to take it home
Your hands will turn to butter
You better leave this dream alone
Try to find another. – Townes Van Zandt ‘Lungs’

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby kirk5a » Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:54 am

While comprehending materiality he should see how materiality is
generated,13 that is to say, how this materiality is generated by the four causes
beginning with kamma.

footnote 13. “First it has to be seen by inference according to the texts. Afterwards it gradually
comes to be seen by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets
stronger” (Vism-mhþ 790).

So says the commentary to the Visuddhimagga.
Page 639 of the PDF version by Bhikkhu Nanamoli.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:30 am

kirk5a wrote:
While comprehending materiality he should see how materiality is
generated,13 that is to say, how this materiality is generated by the four causes
beginning with kamma.

footnote 13. “First it has to be seen by inference according to the texts. Afterwards it gradually
comes to be seen by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets
stronger” (Vism-mhþ 790).

So says the commentary to the Visuddhimagga.
Page 639 of the PDF version by Bhikkhu Nanamoli.
Robert has a tendency not to be very accurate with his quotation and citations, but more importantly are the immediate and broader contexts. The VM is a text that does not supports the Sujinist point of view that Robert is championing here, a point that has already been established in this thread.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:52 am

13. “First it has to be seen by inference according to the texts. Afterwards it gradually comes to be seen by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets stronger” (Vism-mhþ 790).
As the quote included the actual full reference to the tika (Vism-mhp 790) it is rather unfair to conclude that this is an inaccurate citation .
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:57 am

robertk wrote:13. “First it has to be seen by inference according to the texts. Afterwards it gradually comes to be seen by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets stronger” (Vism-mhþ 790).
As the quote included the actual full reference to the tika (Vism-mhp 790) it is rather unfair to conclude that this is an inaccurate citation .


What you wrote:
in the section on the development of vipassana in Vism.xx
13. “First it has to be seen by inference according to the texts. Afterwards it gradually comes to be seen by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets stronger” (Vism-mhþ 790).
As it stands, it is unclear, thus we get this from someone who is no neophyte:
ancientbuddhism wrote:
robertk wrote:in the section on the development of vipassana in Vism.xx
13. “First it has to be seen by inference according to the texts. Afterwards it gradually comes to be seen by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets stronger” (Vism-mhþ 790).



So says Buddhaghosa.
Simply, you could far more clearly have said: "in a footnote citing the commentary in the section on the development of vipassana in Vism.xx . . . ." Also, as has been shown in this thread you do have a tendency to take stuff out of context.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby ancientbuddhism » Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:35 am

kirk5a wrote:So says the commentary to the Visuddhimagga. Page 639 of the PDF version by Bhikkhu Nanamoli.


OK, so says Dhammapala. But thank you for this. I looked at the reference to 'vism xx' and neglected to look more carefully at the cite reference below it.

robertk wrote:13. “First it has to be seen by inference according to the texts. Afterwards it gradually comes to be seen by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets stronger” (Vism-mhþ 790).
As the quote included the actual full reference to the tika (Vism-mhp 790) it is rather unfair to conclude that this is an inaccurate citation .


I suppose what is puzzling is the question of what this snippet of commentary informs the discussion. If I may, the expected standard would be to first give the text the fn. points to (Vism. XX, 22):

    [COMPREHENSION OF THE MATERIAL]
    22. While comprehending materiality he should see how materiality is generated,[13] that is to say, how this materiality is generated by the four causes beginning with kamma. Herein, when materiality is being generated in any being, it is first generated from kamma. For at the actual moment of rebirthlinking of a child in the womb, first thirty instances of materiality are generated in the triple continuity, in other words, the decads of physical [heart-]basis, body, and sex. And those are generated at the actual instant of the rebirth-linking consciousness’s arising. And as at the instant of its arising, so too at the instant of its presence and at the instant of its dissolution.

Then the fn. cited as you had given:

    13. “First it has to be seen by inference according to the texts. Afterwards it gradually comes to be seen by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets stronger” (Vism-mhṭ 790).

But I cannot, at a glance of the previous page of this thread, see what this post is aimed at in the context of a discussion which ended two months prior to it. Even your underlined emphasis does not make this clearer. I can only assume that it is the syntax of this fn. itself that fits some other point you are making?
Fingers walk the darkness down
Mind is on the midnight
Gather up the gold you've found
You fool, it's only moonlight.
If you try to take it home
Your hands will turn to butter
You better leave this dream alone
Try to find another. – Townes Van Zandt ‘Lungs’

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:14 pm

did you read the first page of the thread where I cite Bhikkhu Bodhi:

I repeat it below.
Bhikkhu Bodhi's In the Buddha's Words page 302:




Contemporary Buddhist literature commonly conveys two ideas about pañña that have become almost axioms in the popular understanding of Buddhism, The first is that pañña is exclusively nonconceptual and nondiscursive, a type of cognition that defies all the laws of logical thought; the second, that pañña arises spontaneously, through an act of pure intuition as sudden and instantaneous as a brilliant flash of lightning. These two ideas about pañña are closely connected. If pañña defies all the laws of thought, it cannot be approached by any type of conceptual activity but can arise only when the rational, discriminative, conceptual activity of the mind has been stultified. And this stopping of conceptualization, somewhat like the demolition of a building, must be a rapid one, an undermining of thought not previously prepared for by any gradual maturation of understanding. Thus, in the popular understanding of Buddhism, pañña defies rationality and easily slides off into "crazy wisdom," an incomprehensible, mindboggling way of relating to the world that dances at the thin edge between super-rationality and madness.

Such ideas about pañña receive no support at all from the teachings of the Nikayas, which, are consistently sane, lucid, and sober, To take the two points in reverse order: First, far from arising spontaneously, pañña in the Nikayas is emphatically conditioned, arisen from an underlying matrix of causes and conditions. And second, pañña is not bare intuition, but a careful, discriminative understanding that at certain stages involves precise conceptual operations. Pañña is directed to specific domains of understanding. These domains, known in the Pali commentaries as "the soil of wisdom" (paññabhumi), must be thoroughIy investigated and mastered through conceptual understanding before direct, nonconceptual insight can effectively accomplish its work. To master them requires analysis, discrimination, and discernment. One must be able to abstract from the overwhelming mass of facts certain basic patterns fundamental to all experience and use these patterns as templates for close contemplation of one's own experience
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:32 pm

robertk wrote:" Pañña is directed to specific domains of understanding. These domains, known in the Pali commentaries as "the soil of wisdom" (paññabhumi), must be thoroughIy investigated and mastered through conceptual understanding before direct, nonconceptual insight can effectively accomplish its work. To master them requires analysis, discrimination, and discernment. One must be able to abstract from the overwhelming mass of facts certain basic patterns fundamental to all experience and use these patterns as templates for close contemplation of one's own experience
This interesting. It is the sort of position the Gelugpas take.

This a yes and no situation. Conceptual thinking plays an important role in the setting up of the practice and in talking about the fruits of the practice, but it is not the practice of bhavana. Paying attention to the nama/rupa process is where it all unfolds. There is a world of difference between "knowing" anicca conceptually and in seeing the rise and fall of the nama/rupa process in terms of "the seen in the seen, only the heard in the heard, only the sensed in the sensed, only the cognized in the cognized" (Ud 10).
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby ancientbuddhism » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:02 pm

So the syntax of the fn. fits Bodhi’s introductory notes to Chap. IX of In the Buddha's Words provided 54 pages and one year ago in the present discussion (out of context even then to the questions above it re: satipaṭṭhāna), yet remains unrelated to Vism. XX, 22 where Ñāṇamoli aimed it … that clears things up, yeah.

But I agree with Tilt. Understanding the concepts of Dhamma, as essential as they are to practice, is not the same as direct realisation of what these point to. Nor does contemplative effort require one to “…be able to abstract from the overwhelming mass of facts…” for one to progress in wisdom.
Fingers walk the darkness down
Mind is on the midnight
Gather up the gold you've found
You fool, it's only moonlight.
If you try to take it home
Your hands will turn to butter
You better leave this dream alone
Try to find another. – Townes Van Zandt ‘Lungs’

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:39 pm

I saw this on another thread today.
If I am walking with the firm resolution that I will sit to meditate on the cushion as soon as I arrive home, and I suddenly feel a bowel movement, I will have a “Meditation Vs Defecation” dichotomy, no matter if you call it “false”. At that instant, my mind would contrast the two things as being opposed, entirely different, and with no additional options. Perhaps a moment later I could figure out a third option like meditating while sitting at the WC, and then the dichotomy would vanish.

What is the answer...
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Babadhari » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:19 pm

what is the question exactly?
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Babadhari » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:22 pm

if there was not another feeling of bowel movement would there be any dichotomy?
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby SDC » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:35 pm

The issue is this whole idea of a “formal meditation practice”; that we have to be sitting on a cushion looking swell in order to be productive. It’s the single most constrictive idea about meditation for the non-ariya practitioner.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby SDC » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:37 pm

Kitz, I tried to ask you in another thread, but I think you missed it - what is the source of your signature? I love that line.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Babadhari » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:49 pm

SDC wrote:Kitz, I tried to ask you in another thread, but I think you missed it - what is the source of your signature? I love that line.

hi SDC
it is my incorrect phrasing of this quote, i had tried to find it many times, i just googled it now and found the correct one, thanks
Strive ardently,oh man,& burn! Purity comes from burning away the dross.Gold must pass through a crucible in order to be refined.
Vipassana Daily Doha
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby SDC » Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:02 pm

Nice. I think your phrasing is better though.

Sorry for the tangent.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Babadhari » Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:12 pm

they were (poorly recalled :tongue: ) words that stayed with me, it's nice to finally have the original quote by the very much missed Goenkaji so thank you SDC
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mkoll » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:35 am

robertk wrote:I saw this on another thread today.
If I am walking with the firm resolution that I will sit to meditate on the cushion as soon as I arrive home, and I suddenly feel a bowel movement, I will have a “Meditation Vs Defecation” dichotomy, no matter if you call it “false”. At that instant, my mind would contrast the two things as being opposed, entirely different, and with no additional options. Perhaps a moment later I could figure out a third option like meditating while sitting at the WC, and then the dichotomy would vanish.

What is the answer...

My ideal answer is to move your bowels while being mindful of the body.

Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert.
-MN 10

:anjali:
Peace,
James
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:31 am

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=21622&p=307697#p307697
Has some posts about what can be mistaken for mindfulness.

Eg
I've been finding that when I maintain mindfulness throughout the day, the sense of "no-self" quickly arises which then leads to aversion. I believe this stems from boredom (the mind enjoys escaping into fantasy) as well as disorientation/confusion from sense of no self. The sense of no self feels like (or leads to?) a mild sense of dissociation, like being in a dream. Incidentally, I practice lu
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