cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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mikenz66
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by mikenz66 »

kitztack wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: I really don't see how noticing objects reasonably rapidly could be controversial. I don't think my practice is anything special.
Ok but I'm still trying to understand a couple dozen [what, exactly] are happening per second? Are you referring to the stream of little micro-pinpricks of sensation happening around the body?
or is it more like a series of movie-like frames rapidly arising and passing away in a visual-like sense?
All of the above. And there can be some of the causal sequences described in the suttas and Abhidhamma (contact, feeling, perception, proliferation...).

The point is that, with my limited experience, it seems to me that the Abhidhamma models do have some sound observational basis at their core. As for "billions", I'm not qualified to comment. As others have suggested, that may be just hyperbole...

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Mr Man
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by Mr Man »

Hi Mike, So you can perceive perception arising as distinct from feeling and feeling distinct from contact?
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mikenz66
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by mikenz66 »

Mr Man wrote:Hi Mike, So you can perceive perception arising as distinct from feeling and feeling distinct from contact?
I think that's sometimes the case under retreat conditions. Of course, it could be complete delusion, but it's something that many people I talk to manage to notice, so I don't see it as a big deal. If it's not possible to make such analyses experientially, I don't see why there would be so much in the Suttas and Abdhidhamma about it.
"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by Babadhari »

Mr Man wrote:Hi Mike, So you can perceive perception arising as distinct from feeling and feeling distinct from contact?
it's losing your mind in the best way possible :jumping:
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by BlackBird »

I've got this vision of Carl Sagan sitting there saying 'Billions and billions of cittas' 'Billions and billions of mind-moments'!

Sorry :embarassed:
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by Babadhari »

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring


Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known.
Carl Sagan
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/autho ... eDtU2Ku.99

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Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
daverupa
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by daverupa »

mikenz66 wrote:If it's not possible to make such analyses experientially, I don't see why there would be so much in the Suttas and Abdhidhamma about it.
And yet those are two sources where references to billions of mind-moments are exactly not found... knowing thoughts as they arise, persist, and subside is possible, just as watching a monkey take hold of, swing on, and release a branch is possible.

But for instantaneous mind-moments of infinitesimal duration to be known as they persist is to start talking nonsense.

:shrug:
Last edited by daverupa on Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
daverupa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:If it's not possible to make such analyses experientially, I don't see why there would be so much in the Suttas and Abdhidhamma about it.
And yet those are two sources where references to billions of mind-moments are exactly not found...
:rofl:

Exactly.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by kirk5a »

The question I had was about "votthapana cittas" in particular. I don't feel any closer to being able to recognize these experientially, much less how many might occupy a split second.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by mikenz66 »

kirk5a wrote:The question I had was about "votthapana cittas" in particular. I don't feel any closer to being able to recognize these experientially, much less how many might occupy a split second.
Well, yes, I agree. I can't comment on that from experience.

However, that there are many mind-body processes are going on in split seconds doesn't require any particular Dhamma knowledge or training to figure out, and with a little training it is much clearer. I'm puzzled that anyone would have a problem with that. But some of the questions above seem to call these rather simple observations into question. Surely the Dhamma is about taking the teachings and comparing it with experience...

I'm inclined to think that the "billions and billions" is just hyperbole. However, I would not rule out that it is possible to discern these processes much faster than I currently can.

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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by kirk5a »

mikenz66 wrote: Well, yes, I agree. I can't comment on that from experience.

However, that there are many mind-body processes are going on in split seconds doesn't require any particular Dhamma knowledge or training to figure out, and with a little training it is much clearer. I'm puzzled that anyone would have a problem with that.
I don't have a problem with that.
But some of the questions above seem to call these rather simple observations into question.
Which simple observations are you referring to? The topic is "cittas arise and pass away billions per instant" - obviously, not a simple observation. We still don't even have a first hand report of anyone observing an actual votthapana citta in the wild yet.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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mikenz66
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by mikenz66 »

Well, OK, but it depends on how you look at it.

I start with the assumption that the Commentaries/Visuddhimagga are based on experience of adepts, and try to understand what it is saying in those terms. I wouldn't have a problem believing that it was possible to to observe hundreds per second and I wouldn't be surprised that that is the sort of experience that the texts are based on.

On the other hand, if you start with the assumption that the Commentaries are just literary fiction, and/or think that the important thing about Dhamma in intellectual analysis of suttas, then you will most likely come to a different conclusion.

Even leaving aside the Commentaries, the suttas themselves talk about rise and fall of phenomena (I gave just one quote above). And since we are asked to "see for ourselves", it would be productive, I think, to ask how these statements in the suttas and Commentaries can be related to our experience.

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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by daverupa »

I started from the assumption that the Nikayas were sufficient, in the sense of their being particular leaves not left on the tree, if you take my meaning. The lack of the billions is noteworthy in this respect. I can see the commentaries being exactly the same sort of documents as this forum and modern Buddhisms generally, which is to say a relatively modern take on the available materials. But the Nikayas were this already, taking shape for a hundred or more years, with different ideas about what to do with those materials taking shape in (proto-)abhidhamma-vinaya-s, finally coalescing into scholastic differences in the commentaries and then even later, the Vsm.

It's just so baroque, to go all that way only to end up with an insane number and a bewildering un-experience-able here-and-now assertion that the Buddha never brought off the simsapa tree, if it was even there to be pulled, and one which had at best a local relevance in the context of scholastic debating in ancient India.

:shrug:

One may as well read Western metaphysics, imo, if one is going to spend one's time examining these things, "savant experiences" notwithstanding. I simply consider time here and now to be a more precious resource.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by SDC »

So time is on the level with dhamma?

That seems silly.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by mikenz66 »

daverupa wrote:I started from the assumption that the Nikayas were sufficient, in the sense of their being particular leaves not left on the tree, if you take my meaning. The lack of the billions is noteworthy in this respect. ... .
Yes, I get that. However, rapidly rising and falling phenomena is definitely in the suttas, and is quite readily observable experientially. If you take out the hyperbolic "billions" and replace it by "hundreds" or "thousands" I don't really see a problem.

Is there no interest in discussing how the sutta and Abhidhamma texts relate to actual experience?

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