Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Training of Sila, the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).

Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby boris » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:07 am

I have read quite strange article Why Buddhists Should Support Marriage Equality http://sujato.wordpress.com/2012/03/21/1430/ It looks like author has some personal views - indeed strange for monk who on the first place should support idea of celibacy - views which perhaps can be clasiffy as ditthi-upadana.

For example autor says:
His argument is that the sexual organs are designed for procreation and should be used solely for that purpose. So any form of sex that is not for procreation is out.
This is, to my mind, an extreme and unrealistic position. The Dalai Lama says it is based on certain medieval Indian scholars (Vasubandhu, Asanga – but I have never seen the passages myself). It certainly has no basis in the Suttas.


But in AN V 192 Buddha makes distinction between bramins:
And ... what is bramin one who remains within the boundary? ... Why doesn't he couple with a woman out of season? Because his bramin wife does not serve for sensual pleasure, amusement, and sensual delight, but only for procreation. (...)

And ... what is bramin one who has crossed the boundary? ... His bramin wife serves for sensual plasure, amusement, and sensual delight, as well for procreation.


Do not mention Sutta AN VII, 22 : Ananda,
as long the Vajjis do not decree anything that has not been decreed or abolish anything that has already been decreed but undertake and follow the ancient Vajji principles as they have been decreed, only growth is to be expected for them, not decline.
(translation: Bhikkhu Bodhi)

What is even more strange, commentaries under Ven Sujato article are for the most part positive.
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

Nicolás Gómez Dávila
boris
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:00 pm

Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby James the Giant » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:13 am

That's a a great article by Bhante Sujato, full of compassion, thanks for posting it..
His final paragraph:
Let us take up the best aspects of our own cultures, whether they be Buddhist or modern cultures, and discard all that is unjust discriminatory, and harmful. Let us give our ful support for marriage equality, for if we do not we are betraying the best part of our humanity.


I don't understand your problem with the article , Boris.
Perhaps you could elaborate?
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
User avatar
James the Giant
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:41 am

Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby Dhammanando » Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:13 am

Boris,

I wonder if you would care to clarify the point of your post. Is it your view that homosexuals ought not to be permitted to marry, or merely that the subject is one on which a bhikkhu ought to be silent?

boris wrote:"Ananda, as long the Vajjis do not decree anything that has not been decreed or abolish anything that has already been decreed but undertake and follow the ancient Vajji principles as they have been decreed, only growth is to be expected for them, not decline."


When one enlarges the scope of an existing decree by exploring and pursuing what may reasonably be taken to be intimated in it with respect to conditions not present at the time of its enactment is one necessarily decreeing something new?
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
User avatar
Dhammanando
 
Posts: 1356
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Wat Pa Mieng Khun Pang, Chiang Mai

Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby Mkoll » Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:34 am

The main issue is that some members of every major religion think that the concept of marriage somehow "belongs" to them and there way is the only right way.

Let us take up the best aspects of our own cultures, whether they be Buddhist or modern cultures, and discard all that is unjust discriminatory, and harmful. Let us give our full support for marriage equality, for if we do not we are betraying the best part of our humanity.

I'll say amen to that! :tongue:

:anjali:
Peace,
James
User avatar
Mkoll
 
Posts: 3816
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: California, USA

Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby boris » Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:06 am

Dhammanando wrote:Boris,

I wonder if you would care to clarify the point of your post. Is it your view that homosexuals ought not to be permitted to marry,
Yes. it is exactly my view.
Dhammanando wrote: or merely that the subject is one on which a bhikkhu ought to be silent?
Since I recognize the break of tradition as a dengerous thing, and homosexual marriage as something which base for the most part on sexual desire -in short, something which is akusala,
it's obvious that the second is also true - to support this idea - it is not at all bhikkhu job. Why Buddhists Should Support Celibacy Movement Between Homosexuals - this sounds much better, but rather still not a bhikkhu job.
James the Giant wrote:That's a a great article by Bhante Sujato,
I don't understand your problem with the article , Boris.
Perhaps you could elaborate?

The problem is, for me everything here is quite clear - involvement in akusala action. You seem to disagree with me. If this is so, it's very doubtful, that any kind of elaboration from my side will change your mind. I feel little bit like being asked by anthropophagy - what is my problem, with his diet.
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

Nicolás Gómez Dávila
boris
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:00 pm

Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby Sokehi » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:03 pm

Why the need to rally against other Humans that just want to be happy like you do - just in a way that doesn't suits your point of view on sexuality and obviously homosexuality doesn't necesarilly hurt anyone - the same as heterosexuality.

All religions and religious seekers are well advised to keep their minds out of other peoples beds.
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

https://www.youtube.com/user/Repeataarrr
User avatar
Sokehi
 
Posts: 405
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:27 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby James the Giant » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:26 pm

Ugh, religious prejudice spews out onto my screen.
Very un-Buddhist.
Goodnight.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
User avatar
James the Giant
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:41 am

Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:57 pm

Do find that the following are akusala?

1- Homophobia;
2- Promoting homophobia, through the criticism of a monk's behaviour, perceived as akusala;
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
User avatar
Modus.Ponens
 
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
Location: Gallifrey

Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby Anagarika » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:58 pm

Boris, Что вы говорите? I mention this as Boris may be Russian, and having known Russians (and like them and Russian culture very much) there is a cultural undercurrent of disdain for gays and lesbians. This may stem from the Russian Orthodox church's influence, and it may have to do with a "macho" sensibility among Russian men in general. It is still not quite safe to be gay in Russia, even in major cities.

My own view is that as Buddhism can be thought of as a fact and science based practice, we should understand that a certain percent of any population will be biologically, neurologically, and psychologically gay. Born that way, the same as with other genetic and behavioral traits. Science has shown that gay people did not choose to be gay, but were born that way.

Having accepted the science, as we should as followers/students of the original great scientist of the mind, we can conclude that to deny gay and lesbian people equal rights under the law and due process is an offense against nature and the law. Of course gay people enjoy relationships the same way as straight people do; sex for romance,pleasure, intimacy, marriage. It seems to me very unethical, and very un-Buddhist, to deny any person the right to live ethically and happily the way that nature and their psychology intended them to live.
User avatar
Anagarika
 
Posts: 689
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:25 pm

Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:36 pm

BuddhaSoup wrote:It seems to me very unethical, and very un-Buddhist, to deny any person the right to live ethically and happily the way that nature and their psychology intended them to live.

:goodpost:

All sexual desire and all sexual activity is unwholesome (akusala), even if it is only for procreation. However, that does not make it immoral or unethical.

Certain kinds of sexual activity are classified as sexual misconduct because they harm others, and lead to rebirth in the lower realms. If reborn in the human realm, the evil effects of sexual misconduct are: having many enemies, getting an unsuitable spouse, rebirth as a women, or rebirth as a transsexual.

These teachings are not popular nowadays, but there they are. As with any other teachings, you are welcome to dismiss them or accept them, or just to reflect on them without holding fast to views and opinions, which is the best option since none of us here have the power to know the previous lives or destiny of others do we?

There is even one example of sex change that occurred in that very life, in the Story of Soreyya.

So, people are heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual, or inclined to celibacy due to their kamma. Since it is their own kamma, unless it is harmful to others, such as paedophilia, it doesn't seem very skilful to legislate against it or be intolerant regarding it.

If there's one thing I cannot stand — it's intolerance.
AIM WebsitePāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
 
Posts: 2071
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby boris » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:17 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:If there's one thing I cannot stand — it's intolerance.


Dear Bhante, sorry to say, it's quite uninteligent and contradictory attitude. You must be ready to be intorelant, to things you belive to be akusala, either for you or for society. And here for example, it's quite obvious, that it will not stop at this point, the second step will be possibility to adopt children, by such couples. And to know for sure, how it will unfluence mind of the child - you have to do scientific reaserch.

So it suprises me, that you are so sure, that support of this idea is not at all akusala.
As to others, being sure what is un-Buddhist what not, you just argue against Suttas I already quoted, so rather you have wrong ideas about Dhamma, perhaps you have chosen it only by mistake; Talmud, it is exactly the book where you can find support for your "tolerance" ...

But I must say, the reason I started this topic was rather inquisitive, I wanted to know, whether I really belong to such minority, (judging after positive comments under article of Ven Sujato). So thank you all, for saying what you think. As to me, my saddha in Dhamma is rather unshacable, but I had problem to understand, how it is possible that more people will reapper in hell then come back to human state. Now it does not seem to me as unprobable as before.
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

Nicolás Gómez Dávila
boris
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:00 pm

Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby Anagarika » Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:06 pm

And to know for sure, how it will unfluence mind of the child - you have to do scientific reaserch.


Boris, respectfully, the research supports the idea that children raised lovingly by same sex parents do just as well as those raised by straight parents. Take a look at this video, and see if this has any bearing on what you are concerned about:

http://youtu.be/1VnEexIhBTU

As Bhante stated, it is the absorption in the sense pleasures that takes us off of the path, but I do feel it's a real quantum leap to suggest, as you seem to, that people engaging in healthy, loving lay relationships destines one for the hell realms. This view strikes me as the kind of stuff I used to listen to as a child being disseminated from pulpits by wild eyed priests. If there is a hell realm, then it may be more populated by some of these priests, and others who practice hate and virulent intolerance toward people, straight and gay, of goodwill. At the heart of the Buddha's teachings as found in the Suttas is logic, reason, and a deep sense of compassion and goodwill toward others. How one can embody these paramis in daily life and still practice intolerance toward other positive and ethical members of society is beyond my understanding.
User avatar
Anagarika
 
Posts: 689
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:25 pm

Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby dagon » Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:48 pm

BuddhaSoup wrote:
And to know for sure, how it will unfluence mind of the child - you have to do scientific reaserch.


Boris, respectfully, the research supports the idea that children raised lovingly by same sex parents do just as well as those raised by straight parents. Take a look at this video, and see if this has any bearing on what you are concerned about:

http://youtu.be/1VnEexIhBTU

As Bhante stated, it is the absorption in the sense pleasures that takes us off of the path, but I do feel it's a real quantum leap to suggest, as you seem to, that people engaging in healthy, loving lay relationships destines one for the hell realms. This view strikes me as the kind of stuff I used to listen to as a child being disseminated from pulpits by wild eyed priests. If there is a hell realm, then it may be more populated by some of these priests, and others who practice hate and virulent intolerance toward people, straight and gay, of goodwill. At the heart of the Buddha's teachings as found in the Suttas is logic, reason, and a deep sense of compassion and goodwill toward others. How one can embody these paramis in daily life and still practice intolerance toward other positive and ethical members of society is beyond my understanding.


:goodpost:

The Buddha taught out of compassion for the suffering that was clear to him after enlightenment.
The Buddha taught loving kindness, compassion and joy and equanimity. Any Buddhist teacher that teaches Buddhism without this is not teaching Buddhism in my view.

metta
dagon
dagon
 
Posts: 297
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:45 am

Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby Mkoll » Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:00 pm

boris wrote:homosexual marriage as something which base for the most part on sexual desire -in short, something which is akusala

Right...and heterosexual marriage is never based on sexual desire. :rolleye:

That's not to mention all the kids born out of wedlock and raised on welfare by single moms in the ghetto. How much opportunity are these poor kids afforded?

boris wrote:You must be ready to be intorelant, to things you belive to be akusala, either for you or for society.

For yourself yes, but not for others. "Let none find fault with others; let none see the omissions and commissions of others. But let one see one's own acts, done and undone." -Dhp 50.

BuddhaSoup wrote:
And to know for sure, how it will unfluence mind of the child - you have to do scientific reaserch.


Boris, respectfully, the research supports the idea that children raised lovingly by same sex parents do just as well as those raised by straight parents. Take a look at this video, and see if this has any bearing on what you are concerned about:

http://youtu.be/1VnEexIhBTU

As Bhante stated, it is the absorption in the sense pleasures that takes us off of the path, but I do feel it's a real quantum leap to suggest, as you seem to, that people engaging in healthy, loving lay relationships destines one for the hell realms. This view strikes me as the kind of stuff I used to listen to as a child being disseminated from pulpits by wild eyed priests. If there is a hell realm, then it may be more populated by some of these priests, and others who practice hate and virulent intolerance toward people, straight and gay, of goodwill. At the heart of the Buddha's teachings as found in the Suttas is logic, reason, and a deep sense of compassion and goodwill toward others. How one can embody these paramis in daily life and still practice intolerance toward other positive and ethical members of society is beyond my understanding.

:goodpost:

Beautiful speech by that virtuous young man in the video. His last words sum up this entire issue nicely.

Because the sexual orientation of my parents has had zero effect on the content of my character.
Peace,
James
User avatar
Mkoll
 
Posts: 3816
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: California, USA

Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby boris » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:13 am

Friends, it is good, that you are so compassionate, unfortunately your idea on compassion is quite distorted. You are like “compassionate” people who are very upset because someone tries to prevent inexperienced, uneducated medically man to operate patient.

Believe me, true compassion is to show someone what is kusala and what is akusala, because only that knowledge helps him to avoid suffering.

You seem to don't understand that society is build on greed, hate, and delusion, and as such, the sad truth is, that there is no healthy society … But through the process of living, things comes to some balance which we may call TRADITION. Tradition is not perfect state at all, but usually is the best possible to attain. And any kind of forceful, revolutionary “improvement” , end up with contrary results. It was perfectly well understood by the Lord Buddha, and hence his advice to stick to the tradition.

Unfortunately you also do not have sufficient saddha in The Buddha.

As to friend who suspect that I am under influence of Church, it is bad guessing. I started from more or less the same position as you have now and here. It is practicing of Dhamma changed my ideas.

For example, I considered actor work as more or less harmless, but now, standing on Dhamma I believe that actors for the most part end up in hell, so it is evidently akusala job.

respectfully, the research supports the idea that children raised lovingly by same sex parents do just as well as those raised by straight parents. Take a look at this video, and see if this has any bearing on what you are concerned about:


About scientific research on that subject, I think data is still to limited to come to definite conclusions. Do not mention the sad truth that in world we are now living results of scientific research, depends not on ingenuity of scientist, but on who pays for it.
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

Nicolás Gómez Dávila
boris
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:00 pm

Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:24 am

boris wrote:Friends, it is good, that you are so compassionate, unfortunately your idea on compassion is quite distorted. You are like “compassionate” people who are very upset because someone tries to prevent inexperienced, uneducated medically man to operate patient.
Sadly, your missives show little to no compassion, but they do show a righteousness devoid of anukampa.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19893
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby Dan74 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:12 am

I wouldn't go so far as attack boris's character - for all that I know he is a kind and sincere practitioner. The trouble is with his view which seems to me to be based on his faith, and supported by the interpretation of the Suttas. The context here may be a distrust of change, of revolutions and a deep respect for tradition.

This is not necessarily good or bad. But a thinking person's duty is to examine carefully. Look at the biases and prejudices and check one's understanding constantly without pride, without clinging to views and avoiding hubris of dismissing views of Venerables and elders in the Dhamma while putting one's view above many others.

I've been guilty of the same, so I don't rush to judge you, boris, but to urge you to reflect.
_/|\_
User avatar
Dan74
 
Posts: 2699
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm

Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:26 am

Dan74 wrote:I wouldn't go so far as attack boris's character - for all that I know he is a kind and sincere practitioner.
No one said that he wasn't. Kindness and senecrity are not sheilds against self-deception.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19893
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby Mkoll » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:37 pm

Boris, the fact that you started this discussion is proof that you think it's important.

But is it really that important? Is it really worth clinging to this view of yours? Are you going to actually practice what you preach and join an anti-gay marriage group? Would that be a good use of your time? Whether it's right or wrong for society at large, is clinging to this view good for you and your practice?

In my view, it's not worth having strong views about what's wrong with society unless you actually practice what you preach. Otherwise you just waste time thinking about things you're not going to try to change anyways.
Peace,
James
User avatar
Mkoll
 
Posts: 3816
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: California, USA

Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby Modus.Ponens » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:39 pm

boris wrote:Friends, it is good, that you are so compassionate, unfortunately your idea on compassion is quite distorted. You are like “compassionate” people who are very upset because someone tries to prevent inexperienced, uneducated medically man to operate patient.

Believe me, true compassion is to show someone what is kusala and what is akusala, because only that knowledge helps him to avoid suffering.

You seem to don't understand that society is build on greed, hate, and delusion, and as such, the sad truth is, that there is no healthy society … But through the process of living, things comes to some balance which we may call TRADITION. Tradition is not perfect state at all, but usually is the best possible to attain. And any kind of forceful, revolutionary “improvement” , end up with contrary results. It was perfectly well understood by the Lord Buddha, and hence his advice to stick to the tradition.

Unfortunately you also do not have sufficient saddha in The Buddha.

As to friend who suspect that I am under influence of Church, it is bad guessing. I started from more or less the same position as you have now and here. It is practicing of Dhamma changed my ideas.

For example, I considered actor work as more or less harmless, but now, standing on Dhamma I believe that actors for the most part end up in hell, so it is evidently akusala job.

respectfully, the research supports the idea that children raised lovingly by same sex parents do just as well as those raised by straight parents. Take a look at this video, and see if this has any bearing on what you are concerned about:


About scientific research on that subject, I think data is still to limited to come to definite conclusions. Do not mention the sad truth that in world we are now living results of scientific research, depends not on ingenuity of scientist, but on who pays for it.


Tradition? Which one? The one that sacrifices animals to gods? The one that sacrifices human beings to gods? The one that stones people to death because they were raped? The one that puts men in arenas fighting with lions for the amusement of the crowd? The one that makes prepubescent boys to jump off a giant tower, severely injuring themselves, to prove their manhood? The one that burned "wiches"? I'm confused. Please clarify which of these traditions demonstrate the equilibrium in society that is the best possible.

By the way, there have been terrible revolutionaries. There was Ghadni, who stopped hundreds of years of british collonialism through the sheer power of unflexible non-violence. There was Nelson Mandela who fought the wonderful tradition of Apertheid. And there was a man _ please guess who it was _ that was against the chaste system, who didn't use slaves, who created a monastic order for women, who dismissed the traditional brahmanism and who taught that true peace, freedom and happiness comes, not from aquisition, but through inner cultivation.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
User avatar
Modus.Ponens
 
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
Location: Gallifrey

Next

Return to Ethical Conduct

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests