AN 3.63 Venāga

Each week we study and discuss a different sutta or Dhamma text

Moderator: mikenz66

Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby daverupa » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:36 am

santa100 wrote:Here is your post:
"It is astounding and amazing, Master Gotama! Who else, apart from Master Gotama, can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty, such a noble high and luxurious bed?"

This is unanswered, so it seems like some sort of hyperbolic praise, though elsewhere with this sort of thing we see the phrase 'Brahman, there are not only one hundred other such monks...' which is lacking here. I find that interesting.


By "hyperbolic praise" you seemed to imply "exaggerated" praise.


Yes. Normally this sort phrase is attached to a response that goes over how it's possible for others to attain such things, so without that it seemed to dangle there as an unfinished rhetorical flourish. It just seemed interesting to me.

The "one hundred other such monks" part seems to imply the disciples should automatically be included in AN 3.63 just like the Buddha.


Well, I see no reason they oughtn't to be.

Now, are you suggesting that the Buddha attains this at will, and arahants do not? That, in other words, the Buddha did not strive as a Bodhisatta? That it was an attainment at will, without difficulty, while for arahants only it is an attainment not at will, with difficulty?

Because as I see it, both attained awakening after effort, the Buddha and arahants. Thereupon, they could attain the noble bed at will, but prior to this there was effort, in each case. Furthermore, the brahmaviharas and jhanas are also available to every arahant at will (even if just first jhana).

Everyone puts forth an effort first. Then, after success, it becomes at will, effortless.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4269
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby santa100 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:25 pm

daverupa wrote: Yes. Normally this sort phrase is attached to a response that goes over how it's possible for others to attain such things, so without that it seemed to dangle there as an unfinished rhetorical flourish. It just seemed interesting to me

Well, thanks for confirming that your opinion that Venaga's praise to the Buddha was an "exaggerated" praise. I don't see any evidence for your claim. Had the praise been untrue, the Buddha would've replied with His standard stock phrase seen throughout the Canon: "Don't say that. You shouldn't speak in that way..."

daverupa wrote: Everyone puts forth an effort first. Then, after success, it becomes at will, effortless.


The highlighted part is obvious. Please provide reference for your claim on the second part. And I'll repeat my specific question again, please provide any reference saying any disciple can "gain at will, without difficulty, without trouble" — as the Buddha does at will — the noble high and luxurious bed.
santa100
 
Posts: 1563
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby daverupa » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:52 pm

I'm saying it's a rhetorical flourish that stands out to me, not that it's a false claim or anything. It's simply a unique textual effect when compared with similar occasions, that's all. Nothing hangs on the difference.

I understand thus: ‘I have abandoned greed, cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, obliterated it so that it is no more subject to future arising. I have abandoned hatred, cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, obliterated it so that it is no more subject to future arising. I have abandoned delusion, cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, obliterated it so that it is no more subject to future arising.’

“Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is noble. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is noble. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is noble. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my noble high and luxurious bed. This is that noble high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty.”


So I need to find a citation that says an arahant can have knowledge of their release at will, in any posture.

I feel that this awareness-release which is not temporary, which is perpetual (per the link), fits the bill.

Have you a citation which says that arahants, once they have attained awakening, sometimes forget, in this or that posture? Or that they can only recall the fact of their own awakening with difficulty?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4269
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby santa100 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:22 pm

daverupa wrote: Have you a citation which says that arahants, once they have attained awakening, sometimes forget, in this or that posture? Or that they can only recall the fact of their own awakening with difficulty?


Let's be very clear here. You claimed that arahant disciples can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty just like the Buddha, not me. And I asked for backup citations. Resorting to the absence of citations about arahants attaining with difficulty is no way to prove your claim.


daverupa wrote: So I need to find a citation that says an arahant can have knowledge of their release at will, in any posture.


Again, let's be very clear about what was meant by temporary vs. perpetual in MN 122. Ven. Bodhi noted: "Deliverance of mind that is temporary and delectable: the jhanas and immaterial attainments; versus. deliverance of mind that is perpetual and unshakeable: the supramundane paths and fruits. Also see MN 29.6". Where is the "gain at will, without trouble or difficulty" that I asked for?
santa100
 
Posts: 1563
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby daverupa » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:54 pm

I think that phrase is carrying much more freight for you than it is for me, but I can't understand what about it you see as precious cargo. So, as you like it sir; please clarify for me whether you find the following phrase acceptable:

"Arahants cannot obtain at will, without difficulty, knowledge of their attainment." The noble bed is knowledge of their attainment, you see, so attaining the bed at will is attaining knowledge of one's release at will.

santa100 wrote:You claimed that arahant disciples can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty just like the Buddha, not me.


Yes. Arahants know they are released, just as the Buddha knows he is released. This knowledge can be reviewed at will, without difficulty, by either of these folk. Precisely so.

Does this sutta comprise the sole evidence against this claim, in your view?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4269
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby santa100 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:16 pm

daverupa wrote: Yes. Arahants know they are released, just as the Buddha knows he is released. This knowledge can be reviewed at will, without difficulty, by either of these folk. Precisely so.


Again, you keep lumping the 2 parts together. Everyone know arahants attain release just like the Buddha, which is the first part of your sentence. It's the second part that I have not seen any reference to back it up. If even ven. Sariputta had to use the indirect method at just the 4th immaterial attainment in MN 111: "This indirect introspective method must be used to contemplate the fourth immaterial attainment because this attainment, being extremely subtle, does not enter into the direct range of investigation for disciples. Only fully enlightened Buddhas are able to contemplate it directly", I simply don't see any ground to conclude any arahant disciple can gain at will without trouble or difficulty just like the Buddha the noble high and luxurious bed. I'm not trying to be nitpicky, but since the Buddha's teaching is "deep in meaning", we're obligated to carefully consider every sentence and every word before jumping to any claim or conclusion you know..
santa100
 
Posts: 1563
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby daverupa » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:55 pm

santa100 wrote:It's the second part that I have not seen any reference to back it up. If even ven. Sariputta had to use the indirect method at just the 4th immaterial attainment in MN 111: "This indirect introspective method must be used to contemplate the fourth immaterial attainment because this attainment, being extremely subtle, does not enter into the direct range of investigation for disciples. Only fully enlightened Buddhas are able to contemplate it directly", I simply don't see any ground to conclude any arahant disciple can gain at will without trouble or difficulty just like the Buddha the noble high and luxurious bed.


You seem to be equating immaterial attainments with knowledge of release. There's no reason to do this. The sutta under discussion here mentions only brahmaviharas, jhanas, and knowledge of release. These, every arahant has access to at will, without difficulty.

I cited a passage to support this statement with respect to the jhanas, let me see what else I can find for you.
Last edited by daverupa on Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4269
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby santa100 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:57 pm

No, that's just an example to see the difference right at the level of immaterial attainment, let alone anything higher. Please do let me know with any new finding for I'm willing to listen..
santa100
 
Posts: 1563
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby daverupa » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:13 pm

Something of a poor copy of MN 76, which I've edited for clarity:

Sandaka: "Good ânanda, to a bhikkhu perfect, has destroyed desires, has done what should be done, put down the weight, come to the highest good, destroyed the desires `to be' and is rightly knowing released, is knowledge and vision constantly and continually established, as my desires are destroyed?'"

Ananda: "`Sandaka, I will give you a comparison, for some wise men understand when a comparison is given. Sandaka, a man's hands and feet are cut off. In whatever posture he may be he would know my hands and feet are cut and reflecting would know my hands and feet are cut. In like manner, the bhikkhu who is perfect, has destroyed desires, has done what should be done, put down the weight, has come to the highest good, has destroyed the desires `to be' and is rightly knowing released, would know constantly and continually my desires are destroyed. `"

Sandaka: "Good Gotama, about how many are led across in this Dispensation?'"

Ananda: "`Sandaka, not one, not even one hundred, not two hundred, not three hundred, not four hundred, not five hundred yet many more are led across in this dispensation,'"


I'm gonna go ahead and call this "at will, without difficulty".
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4269
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby santa100 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:41 pm

Ven. Bodhi's MN 76's translation:
But, Master Ānanda, when a bhikkhu is an arahant with taints destroyed…is his knowledge and vision that his taints are destroyed continuously and uninterruptedly present to him whether he is walking or standing or sleeping or awake?”

“As to that, Sandaka, I shall give you a simile, for some wise men here understand the meaning of a statement by means of a simile. Suppose a man’s hands and feet were cut off. Whether he is walking or standing or sleeping or awake, his hands and feet are continuously and uninterruptedly cut off, but he would know this only when he reviews the fact. So too, Sandaka, when a bhikkhu is an arahant with taints destroyed…his knowledge and vision that his taints are destroyed is not continuously and uninterruptedly present to him whether he is walking or standing or sleeping or awake; rather, he knows ‘My taints are destroyed’ only when he reviews this fact


Actually that sounds even more like a complementary to MN 111 that I've already referenced..
santa100
 
Posts: 1563
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby daverupa » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:11 pm

santa100 wrote:Ven. Bodhi's MN 76's translation:
But, Master Ānanda, when a bhikkhu is an arahant with taints destroyed…is his knowledge and vision that his taints are destroyed continuously and uninterruptedly present to him whether he is walking or standing or sleeping or awake?”

“As to that, Sandaka, I shall give you a simile, for some wise men here understand the meaning of a statement by means of a simile. Suppose a man’s hands and feet were cut off. Whether he is walking or standing or sleeping or awake, his hands and feet are continuously and uninterruptedly cut off, but he would know this only when he reviews the fact. So too, Sandaka, when a bhikkhu is an arahant with taints destroyed…his knowledge and vision that his taints are destroyed is not continuously and uninterruptedly present to him whether he is walking or standing or sleeping or awake; rather, he knows ‘My taints are destroyed’ only when he reviews this fact


Actually that sounds even more like a complementary to MN 111 that I've already referenced..


Hmm. To me it sounds as though they can review it at will, without difficulty. Oh well. Perhaps it is as you say, instead, where they can review it only with difficulty, not at will.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4269
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby santa100 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:31 pm

No worry friend. The only surefire way to tell is to attain the fruit to see for ourselves anyway... :anjali:
santa100
 
Posts: 1563
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby pabhaata » Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:39 am

the jhanas are equated to celestial beds(dibba). the brahma viharas are equated to divine beds(brahma). as far as i have read, both jhanas and the brahma viharas lead to rebirth in brahma worlds. the tika says that the jhanas lead to states of being a deva so they are equated to divine beds. this is the first time i see jhanas being equated to deva loka. are there any other suttas that say so to?
pabhaata
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:35 am

Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby santa100 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:20 pm

Deva is a very broad term that involves many classifications/grades of beings in all 3 realms: kama, rupa, and arupa-dhatu.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deva_(Buddhism)#Types_of_deva
santa100
 
Posts: 1563
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:43 pm

Hi pabhaata,

See the sutta references here:
The Thirty-one Planes of Existence
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... /loka.html

E.g. AN 4.123 Jhana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"There is the case where an individual, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there — fixed on that, dwelling there often, not falling away from that — then when he dies he reappears in conjunction with the devas of Brahma's retinue. The devas of Brahma's retinue, monks, have a life-span of an eon. A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal womb, to the state of the hungry shades. But a disciple of the Blessed One, having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, is unbound right in that state of being. This, monks, is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor, between an educated disciple of the noble ones and an uneducated run-of-the-mill person, when there is a destination, a reappearing.


:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10562
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Postby pabhaata » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:02 am

thank you. i found the sutta quoted. it does say the word 'deva' in pali. but according to abhidhamma that plane is considered to be a brahma plane. i checked furthur and found that in many suttas, word 'deva' is used for brahma worlds too. though i've read them before, i never noticed till now. thanks again.
pabhaata
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:35 am

Previous

Return to Study Group

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests