Buddhism, Hinduism and the caste system

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Indrajala
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Re: Buddhism, Hinduism and the caste system

Post by Indrajala »

Bronkhorst's idea is that Buddhism early on didn't have a caste system, but over time given the process of brahmanization it indeed did take on a modified, quite watered-down version of caste. Buddhists generally never accepted a predetermined social hierarchy and thus were oppressed and destroyed for it (the recent work by Giovanni Virardi is a good study of the downfall of Buddhism in India).

We need to keep in mind that a lot of what seems to be common culture between Buddhists and Brahmans even in ancient times was in fact cultural colonization. Buddhist scriptures and texts were modified over time to reflect prevailing sentiments and values. You see this a lot in Mahāyāna texts where moral norms reflect Brahman values in some ways.

There was less of this influence down south in Sri Lanka. The north, however, was heavily influenced to the point that stupa-worship culture diminished.

Modern day Hinduism generally refers to a nebulous hybrid of older traditions connected with this idea of the Indian nation. A lot of modern values which can be found somewhere in India's past are especially celebrated whereas other things like horse sacrifices according to the Vedas isn't practised or mentioned much.

I imagine for many Indians Buddhism the appeal to Buddhism is the fact it is both Indian and familiar enough so as not to come across as alien or colonialist.

Still, I sense there is a bias often against Buddhism.

Just the other day this upper class lady came into the temple uninvited, demanded a different kind of tea than what we had given her, told me that she thought Buddhism is a dirty religion, and then asked me if I could teach her meditation.

I've heard similar sentiments about Jains.

There's cause for this, though, because the old Brahmanical literature paints śramaṇa culture as that of asuras. It is atheist, uncontrolled, unfaithful to the gods and naked (i.e., without the Vedas).
Shaswata_Panja
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Re: Buddhism, Hinduism and the caste system

Post by Shaswata_Panja »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Buddhist kamma is not fatalism — it is a natural law of cause and effect. The differences between Buddhist kamma and Hindu karma are not immediately obvious.

Being born poor is a result of stealing in a previous life, or lack of charity. However, kamma done in the present existence is the means to escape from poverty by cultivating knowledge, working hard, being honest and prudent. The wholesome kamma done later is counteractive kamma to offset the unwholesome kamma done earlier. The converse is also true — a foolish child of millionaires may become destitute by negligence and having evil associates.

Being born in a family of low social status (hīna-kūlāni), is a result of the unwholesome kamma of not showing due respect to parents, elders, teachers, etc., due to pride and arrogance.

Being born in a low caste in the Hindu system is a life-long curse. There is no escaping from the fact of one's parentage, and those who believe in the caste system will do whatever they can to maintain the artificial barriers that they have established through centuries.

The Buddha rejected the caste system, but nevertheless it was a fact of life during his time as it still is in much of India nowadays, and even his own relatives were not free from prejudice based on their identity with the Sākyan clan, which they regarded as superior to others. Even in Western countries, where there is no caste system, there are clearly defined social classes that can be difficult to transcend.

Anyone can elevate their social status through education and diligence. They can become cultured, gentle, and noble-minded individuals who show humility. It is one's conduct (physical, verbal, and mental) that makes an individual worthy of respect and high social status.

All beings have kamma as their own property (kammassaka), they are the heirs of their (kammadayādā), they are born from their kamma (kammayoṇī), they have kamma as their relatives (kammabandhū), and have kamma as their refuge (kammapaṭisaraṇā). Whatever kamma they do, for good or for ill, of that they will be the heirs.

See the Lesser Discourse on the Analysis of Kamma and An Exposition of Kamma.


As a Hindu that too an OBC (Other Backward Caste), I have to call you out on this one...this seems to be thoroughly ignorant post....How come somebody's caste be a lifelong curse if he or she can go to the same school, write the same entrance examinations and go to the same college?


and really Buddha really rejected the caste system? I feel caste system was relevant in a day and age when sons used to learn their trade skills from their father..may be they could enroll under the apprenticeship of someone else early in life if they really wanted another career but which father in his right ind would let his son learn another trade for several more years when he can support the family with the trade skills already learnt from his father?

The modern University, technical college and urban and rural life situation in India makes caste system irrelevant..and given another 20-30 years it will disappear completely...It seems Christians and Buddhists want to make themselves look good by looking down on Hinduism which has become extremely fashionable these days, well it has been since the time of colonialism



I would say this doctrine of birth to a low status(well a euphemistically way of putting caste) because of previous karma is more harmful in terms of perpetuating the caste system than anything else..My 2 Rupees
Shaswata_Panja
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Re: Buddhism, Hinduism and the caste system

Post by Shaswata_Panja »

Prasadachitta wrote:Ambedkerite Buddhists in India do not accept that a persons cast is the result of Karma. They see Karma as only one of many possible forces as play in a result coming about. They see good Karma as tending to support good results and bad Karma bad results but only in relationship to a number of other forces or processes at work in the world. I cant speak for all Ambedkerites but I have spent a bit of time in Nagpur studying and practicing with them. Ambedkar converted to Buddhism partly because the Buddha explicitly ridiculed exponents of the cast system. He felt he needed to reject Hinduism as it explicitly enshrines it as a religious truth. Buddhism is well suited to the Ambedkarites because it is historically Indian and is becoming increasingly popular around the world. The outcast people of India are so remarkably oppressed that it is hard to find anything comparable in the world. Their self esteem tends to be totally squashed. A religious system which says that their value in the world is reflected by the quality of their mind and not dictated by their birth is critical to lifting them out of utter depravity. They are overjoyed when comre from other parts of the world and share Buddhism with them. Its really quite a beautiful thing.

Prasadachitta
Ambedkarite Buddhists are part of the Mahar caste..the only castes that have in someway taken to Ambedkarite Buddhism........300 Million of other Scheduled Castes, Tribes (its bad manners to call low caste---I suppose a buddhist forum should know this) overwhelmingly prefer to remain Sanatana Dharmiks (Hindus)

And FYI Ambedkar considered taking all his followers (90% being Mahar castes of interior Maharashtra) at first to Sikhism but the Jatt Councils were apprehensive that their standing in the Sikh community would decrease so they were a bit apprehensive.....and He after studying Islam and Christianity he rejected them as He contended that they were inimical to the ethos of Indian civilization..thats why he went over to Buddhism

Not that I mind, Hinduism is stronger than ever..So called SC,STs are being made priests in the biggest temples of Gujarat...Hindus sent last week Mission to Mars..here is a huge interest in meditation and yoga among the Hindu lay community..there are millions of Sannyasis and Yogis whose practice mirroe if not are more severe than the dhutange practices which all Buddhist monks aspire to-----if Christians and Muslims had not come over to the sub-continent Hindus would have achived this a couple of centuries ago
Shaswata_Panja
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Re: Buddhism, Hinduism and the caste system

Post by Shaswata_Panja »

anyways If my posts came as confrontational or abrasive, I would like to apologize..there were some misrepresentations in my eyes which I wanted to correct!!

Aum!
Sanjay PS
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Re: Buddhism, Hinduism and the caste system

Post by Sanjay PS »

Sheer ignorance , feeling someone by his or her being born into a community .

People from diverse backgrounds , be it a sweeper , priest , king , makes for no high or low standing . Uprightness of the mind , free of discrimination makes all the difference .

The Buddhas words always resonates with the deepest of wisdoms " to have the humility of the beggars son , and strength of a bull with broken horns " .

sanjay
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

U S.N. Goenka
Sanjay PS
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Re: Buddhism, Hinduism and the caste system

Post by Sanjay PS »

Shaswata_Panja wrote:anyways If my posts came as confrontational or abrasive, I would like to apologize..there were some misrepresentations in my eyes which I wanted to correct!!

Aum!
What difference does it make if one belongs to this community or that community , this religion or that religion , this country or that country . Its always an inspiration to feel a noble hearted person irrespective of such ignorant brackets .

sanjay
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

U S.N. Goenka
Shaswata_Panja
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Re: Buddhism, Hinduism and the caste system

Post by Shaswata_Panja »

Sanjay PS wrote: What difference does it make if one belongs to this community or that community , this religion or that religion , this country or that country . Its always an inspiration to feel a noble hearted person irrespective of such ignorant brackets .

sanjay



The difference is if views that misrepresent India and Hinduism become the norm, it will hurt the long term interests of a huge amount of people.

People who criticize Hinduism also criticize the social,cultural milieu from which Buddha came up and that's also an affront against Buddhism

Do people really think that Buddha would have born in USA, Europe, Middle East or Israel?

India was always a spiritual powerhouse that gave birth to such giants and Buddha only continued that Parampara
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Buddhism, Hinduism and the caste system

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Shaswata_Panja wrote:As a Hindu that too an OBC (Other Backward Caste), I have to call you out on this one...this seems to be thoroughly ignorant post....How come somebody's caste be a lifelong curse if he or she can go to the same school, write the same entrance examinations and go to the same college?
That is largely thanks to the efforts of Dr Ambedkar. It was not the case for his generation. He was unusually fortunate in getting a foreign education with the help of a wealthy benefactor.

The fact that you identify yourself by your caste is a clear sign that casteism is alive and well in India. Take a look at the marriage ads in any newspaper, and tell me if any of them still mention caste. If most do not, I might accept your statement that being from the scheduled or backward¹ castes makes no difference.

I am sure that things have improved a great deal in India since Colonial times, as they have in the UK in respect of racial discrimination (though it is still a significant problem).

¹ What does that mean in Indian society? In English "Backward" means "Retarded in intellectual development" or "Having made less than normal progress" — as in "an economically backward country."
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Shaswata_Panja
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Re: Buddhism, Hinduism and the caste system

Post by Shaswata_Panja »

Wow so all of India's development in Universities down to Dr. Ambedkar? Thats quite a bit of stretch...Is it standard procedure of Buddhists and Christians to appropriate all the good things of India for themselves and heap all the bad on Hindus? I had to mention my caste else people would have been under the impression that may be Forward Caste Hindus are oppsing the views here.....Its just a holdover tradition those marriage proposal columns...Are you even an Indian? Do you know the ground realities of India? 60-70 percent of the marriage in India are Love Marriages which cut across caste, language, economic and even religious barriers....

and let me remind you the country you are so fond of, UK, did its utmost best to forment caste and religious tensions so that they could hold on to power and exploit the people...Where would India have been if it was not colonized?
SarathW
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Re: Buddhism, Hinduism and the caste system

Post by SarathW »

Hi Shaswata
You said:
I would say this doctrine of birth to a low status(well a euphemistically way of putting caste) because of previous karma is more harmful in terms of perpetuating the caste system than anything else..

What I think:
The problem is not the doctrine of Kamma.
The problem is majority Buddhist do not understand Kamma and how it operates.
The best book I read about Kamma see attached:
http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/kamma.htm#Contents

You said:
The modern University, technical college and urban and rural life situation in India makes caste system irrelevant..and given another 20-30 years it will disappear completely

My thoughts are:
Anyone who think that the thousands of year old cast system is irrelevant in 30 years is berry his/her head in sand!
Does Indian government take any positive action to educate its children and the general public against discrimination?
Is there a prominent leader like Gandhi in India who challenge against discrimination?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: Buddhism, Hinduism and the caste system

Post by SarathW »

Shaswata_Panja wrote:Wow so all of India's development in Universities down to Dr. Ambedkar? Thats quite a bit of stretch...Is it standard procedure of Buddhists and Christians to appropriate all the good things of India for themselves and heap all the bad on Hindus? I had to mention my caste else people would have been under the impression that may be Forward Caste Hindus are oppsing the views here.....Its just a holdover tradition those marriage proposal columns...Are you even an Indian? Do you know the ground realities of India? 60-70 percent of the marriage in India are Love Marriages which cut across caste, language, economic and even religious barriers....

and let me remind you the country you are so fond of, UK, did its utmost best to forment caste and religious tensions so that they could hold on to power and exploit the people...Where would India have been if it was not colonized?
You guys got independent 60 years ago.
You still could not get the house in order!
Blame yourself not some one else.
Look at Hong Kong for example.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Shaswata_Panja
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Re: Buddhism, Hinduism and the caste system

Post by Shaswata_Panja »

Did I ever blame UK? Nopes never...But then 40 Billion dollars worth of gold was recovered from one non-descript Hindu temple a few years back..now that goes without saying how much would the Christians and Muslims would have looted given that there were thousands and thousands of such temples all over India...and comparing a 1.2 billion nation to a city that was a trading post used by Christians to make hundreds of millions of Buddhists and Taoists in China addicts is all too fair I guess...and things are on the right track..20-30 years from now Hindus and India will be one world power to reckon with..There was a Mars Mission last week..If the Christians and Muslims didnot meddle I suspect it would have been achived a few centuries back

and the Next Buddha will also be born in India to the Brahmnin caste---words of Buddhists not mine

So it goes without saying there is very little to be gained by denigrating the social milieu and the culture which Lord Buddha himself revered..granted with a few obvious exceptions
Shaswata_Panja
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Re: Buddhism, Hinduism and the caste system

Post by Shaswata_Panja »

SarathW wrote:Hi Shaswata
You said:
I would say this doctrine of birth to a low status(well a euphemistically way of putting caste) because of previous karma is more harmful in terms of perpetuating the caste system than anything else..

What I think:
The problem is not the doctrine of Kamma.
The problem is majority Buddhist do not understand Kamma and how it operates.
The best book I read about Kamma see attached:
http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/kamma.htm#Contents

You said:
The modern University, technical college and urban and rural life situation in India makes caste system irrelevant..and given another 20-30 years it will disappear completely

My thoughts are:
Anyone who think that the thousands of year old cast system is irrelevant in 30 years is berry his/her head in sand!
Does Indian government take any positive action to educate its children and the general public against discrimination?
Is there a prominent leader like Gandhi in India who challenge against discrimination?

There are modules in equality in Moral Science classes...again I suspect a Non-Indian berating Indians?

and Hindu leaders and organizations are at the forefront in abolishing caste..they have got all the priest sangathans to agree on it..in many states so called Dalits have become temple priests..women are being given training to become temple priests
Sanjay PS
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Re: Buddhism, Hinduism and the caste system

Post by Sanjay PS »

Shaswata_Panja wrote:Did I ever blame UK? Nopes never...But then 40 Billion dollars worth of gold was recovered from one non-descript Hindu temple a few years back..now that goes without saying how much would the Christians and Muslims would have looted given that there were thousands and thousands of such temples all over India...and comparing a 1.2 billion nation to a city that was a trading post used by Christians to make hundreds of millions of Buddhists and Taoists in China addicts is all too fair I guess...and things are on the right track..20-30 years from now Hindus and India will be one world power to reckon with..There was a Mars Mission last week..If the Christians and Muslims didnot meddle I suspect it would have been achived a few centuries back

and the Next Buddha will also be born in India to the Brahmnin caste---words of Buddhists not mine

So it goes without saying there is very little to be gained by denigrating the social milieu and the culture which Lord Buddha himself revered..granted with a few obvious exceptions

It does no good in glorifying a particular religion or a country , nor does it do any good in berating any religion or a country and its people . People who choose to be ignorant will continue to be ignorant , whether born in a particular country , caste or religion . People who opt to become wise , will put in right efforts to become wise , sooner or later , whether they be born anywhere .

It is for us to go beyond the belittling fomentation that the unwise cling to .

It was the priestly community of the Hindu settings during the Buddhas time , in seeing their popularity dwindling , incorporated the Buddha as a reincarnation of the Divine God Vishnu , which the Buddha outrightly rejected . Later in a further attempt to gain back the popularity of the priestly community , it was added that Vishnu in the form Buddha had actually come on the earthly plane , so as to draw away the asuras (demons ) who were found to be mastering the vedas , and would consume the divine world . Hence , anyone who followed the Buddhas teachings were asuras , in order to be drawn away from the teachings of Hinduism , thereby enabling to preserve its sanctity .

Therefore in Hinduism , the Buddha is revered owing to the reincarnation of Vishnu , but his teachings is shunned due to the above mentioned ploy that the priestly community doctored in the Hindu teachings .

Again , India and the world at large are extremely fortunate to have the Late Shree SN Goenkaji who brought back the pristine teachings of the Buddha to its country of origin , and not only did that , but also met the Shankracharayas ( Chief revered priests of the Hindu community ) ,and after a personal closed door meeting , the Shankaracharyas issued a public statement withdrawing the mention of the Buddha being a reincarnation of Vishnu . I had read of this milestone happening about a decade ago , but do not have its reference with me at this point of time . Nevertheless , this happened .

Irrespective of the above mentions , what is of paramount importance for each of us, is to always introspect , whether our attachments to conceit , belonging , jealousy , lust , agitation , hatred is abating or not . If its still the same or the progress is not meaningful , its always wise to continue working , rather than engaging in arguments and counter arguments .

Realize truth for oneself, and be done with it .

sanjay
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

U S.N. Goenka
himalayanspirit
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Re: Buddhism, Hinduism and the caste system

Post by himalayanspirit »

As a Hindu that too an OBC (Other Backward Caste), I have to call you out on this one...
Why dont you still understand that you do not have to identify yourself with a caste (OBC)? Only then will the caste system end. The problem with Hindus is that they purport to speak against caste based discrimination but they are still okay with caste. As an Indian, I can say honestly that I have met many cosmopolitan Brahmins who are modernized and progressive than the OBCs who are most Hindu among all Hindus.
How come somebody's caste be a lifelong curse if he or she can go to the same school, write the same entrance examinations and go to the same college?
Just because the outsiders do not live in India and do not know how important caste plays a role in various facets of every day life, doesn't mean you can fool them by giving the above logic. Even the African-Americans can go to universities but does it mean that they do not feel discrimination in their life? And that is supposedly a developed society. In the third world society, caste is not easily forgotten. When a new Brahmin judge of Allahabad court took office a few years ago, he first conducted a purifying ritual to purify the environment because a Dalit was his predecessor. Caste is very important in Hindu society. It is an essential part of identity.
and really Buddha really rejected the caste system?
Buddha rejected discrimination based on one's birth based identity. He was basically against racism because during his time, caste system was more or less the same as racism. Brahmins, the Indo-Aryan people, looked much distinct from the rest of the people.
I feel caste system was relevant in a day and age when sons used to learn their trade skills from their father..may be they could enroll under the apprenticeship of someone else early in life if they really wanted another career but which father in his right ind would let his son learn another trade for several more years when he can support the family with the trade skills already learnt from his father?
This was indeed the case but only before the resurgence of Hinduism by the likes of Shankara and Kumaril Bhatta. So you dont have to take credit for it. You know what your (Brahmanism) position is on this, dont you?

2500 years ago Buddha was opposing the arrogance of Brahmin superiority.
1000 years ago the likes of Kabir were dealing with Brahmin arrogance and superiority complex.
50 years ago Dr. Ambedkar was fighting Brahmin caste system.

Nothing has changed in these many years, and you think caste system will disappear in the next few years? All through the course of Indian history, many things have changed, there have been many invasions and migrations (Hunas, Scythians, Mughals etc) and yet it could not affect the superiority complex of Brahmins, and you thinking globalization will pose it such a challenge to decimate it in the next few years?

If you proudly proclaim to be an OBC, you yourself are yet to shed the concept of caste, much less the remaining Indians.
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