Do people who get murdered deserve it?

[tiltbillings]

The individual is out of control.
chownah

Fortunately, that is not what the Buddha taught. There are aspects of our lives that we do have enough control of that we can choose to follow his teachings or not

[Mr Man]

This is the definition of determinism from merriam-webster.com:

a : a theory or doctrine that acts of the will, occurrences in nature, or social or psychological phenomena are causally determined by preceding events or natural laws.

Could this describe abidhamma philosaphy?

[tiltbillings]

This is the definition of determinism from merriam-webster.com:

a : a theory or doctrine that acts of the will, occurrences in nature, or social or psychological phenomena are causally determined by preceding events or natural laws.

Could this describe abidhamma philosaphy?

"Determinism is a philosophical position stating that for everything that happens there are conditions such that, given those conditions, nothing else could happen."

[SDC]

The individual is out of control.
chownah

Fortunately, that is not what the Buddha taught. There are aspects of our lives that we do have enough control of that we can choose to follow his teachings or not

I think chownah is saying that people have very little or exercise very little control. If that isn't what he meant, that is what I'm saying. The Buddha definitely taught that. He also taught how to gain control of the behavior and thinking. And the first verse of the Dhammapada explains how conditions are a result of how we think. So control is there to be gained.

[tiltbillings]

The individual is out of control.
chownah

Fortunately, that is not what the Buddha taught. There are aspects of our lives that we do have enough control of that we can choose to follow his teachings or not

I think chownah is saying that people have very little or exercise very little control. If that isn't what he meant, that is what I'm saying. The Buddha definitely taught that. He also taught how to gain control of the behavior and thinking. And the first verse of the Dhammapada explains how conditions are a result of how we think. So control is there to be gained.

Damdifino what chownah meant, but I try to read msgs as they are written, and I don't see any in his 6 words reference to, or direct statement of, having little control or exercising little control, notions which would be easy enough to express.

[robertk]

Thanks robertk and mikenz66
But don't all these discussions come about because we want to get away from a world that feels random and create some order (through ideas). So I'm not sure if accepting randomness is really appealing to many (although yes it does get offered as an option).

I don't think appealing has anything to do with it, indeed. One could just as well ask the question why determinism (or all-is-kamma) is so appealing to people.

Well, I find it easier to understand why determinism or why or a moral order would be appealing. Being in control or being out of control, It's a no-brainer isn't it?

moral order aligns with the Dhamma. does randomness?

[Mr Man]

moral order aligns with the Dhamma. does randomness?

Do you mean moral order aligns with the teachings of the Buddha?

If I was driving a car and one of my tyres popped, which caused me to hit a dog. I would say there were a set of events which caused this to happen but there is also a degree of randomness in how the event came together. At what point does something become random? Maybe I was careless because I have a predisposition to carelessness. Maybe the dog was behaving in a certain way due to it's predisposition but in my opinion we have to accept a certain amount of randomness or of not knowing "why" in such situations. Although it seems like the natural tendency of my mind is to try and find or create an explanation.

[tiltbillings]

moral order aligns with the Dhamma. does randomness?

Do you mean moral order aligns with the teachings of the Buddha?

If I was driving a car and one of my tyres popped, which caused me to hit a dog. I would say there were a set of events which caused this to happen but there is also a degree of randomness in how the event came together. At what point does something become random? Maybe I was careless because I have a predisposition to carelessness. Maybe the dog was behaving in a certain way due to it's predisposition but in my opinion we have to accept a certain amount of randomness or of not knowing "why" in such situations. Although it seems like the natural tendency of my mind is to try and find or create an explanation.

Pretty much what the Buddha taught.

[reflection]

I think a difficulty also arises when we think dying is so much more suffering than living, so if we die non-naturally (eg. murder, accident) we must have somehow deserved it by kamma. But the difference ain't that big. One could also easily be reborn without having gone backwards, so kamma vipaka in the end is really small. I can see it would sort of being like going to sleep and waking up. But nobody looks for kamma causes for that.

I hope people understand what I try to say here.

[purple planet]

Great question dr i wondered about it myself - here is a good video on your question - in short it says there is good and bad kamma (vipaka) but its only part of the stuff that happen and that you can experience bad experiences without any connection to kamma

phpBB .

[Dr. Dukkha]

Wow. I'm not giving out names, but a lot of you people are really aggressive and mean... I don't appreciate it. I was only asking a question. But thanks to the some of you who were courteous enough to answer my question without panicking or retorting inappropriately.

[Dr. Dukkha]

Great question dr i wondered about it myself - here is a good video on your question - in short it says there is good and bad kamma (vipaka) but its only part of the stuff that happen and that you can experience bad experiences without any connection to kamma

phpBB .

Seems like an interesting video. I'll check it out. PM me. I'm very curious about religious freedom in Israel.

[chownah]

It seems that there is an assumption being made here that dieing is a punishment......or that dieing is something to be avoided. In the descriptions of arahants dieing that I have seen in the Canon it seems that they are pretty much blasé about it and don't act as if it is negative on any way much less a punishment. Seems like only those people who are attached to life view death as a punishment. Could this topic actually be asking whether the dukkha which arises from attachment is deserved?

And again.....we really need a definition of "deserved"........and deserved by whom?

chownah

[pegembara]

This is how I see it. Things don't happen without a cause.
The cause can be as simple as being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or one can be a gangster being caught in the cycle of violence.
Or a soldier in the time of war. Or being killed in an act of revenge.

It is not a question of "deserving" it but just cause and effect.

Say there is a group of hostages being held by terrorist. Why is one person chosen for execution instead of another? Perhaps because of what he/she represents
in the eyes of the terrorist.

If one believes in past lives, the cause can be due to what happened in a previous existence but there is no longer any memory of the past.

Take this example for instance. A cruel and evil person got injured and goes into coma. He recovers with no memory of his previous "existence" but he is still not free from its consequences.
He might be perplexed as to why there are people out to kill him. To his knowledge, he has never hurt anyone in his present "existence". Does he "deserve" to die in the hands of another?

Bottom line is nothing happens without a cause.

[Sylvester]

Thanks for all the interesting thoughts on SN 36.21 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html) versus AN 3.33 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html).

Perhaps there is a slight difference in the way the suttas are phrased in the Pali that might shed some light on the apparent inconsistency.

In AN 3.33, we have -

lobho nidānaṃ kammānaṃ samudayāya, doso nidānaṃ kammānaṃ samudayāya, moho nidānaṃ kammānaṃ samudayāya.

Greed is a cause for the origination of actions. Aversion is a cause for the origination of actions. Delusion is a cause for the origination of actions.

If I were strict in enforcing the distinction between "cause" and "condition", I would render the word nidāna above as "condition", instead of "cause", following the standard understanding DA.

In SN 36.21, we have a slightly different choice of word -

yaṃ kiñcāyaṃ purisapuggalo paṭisaṃvedeti sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā sabbaṃ taṃ pubbekatahetū

Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action

There is a further problem with the translation of AN 3.33 -

Yaṃ bhikkhave lobhapakataṃ kammaṃ lobhajaṃ lobhanidānaṃ lobhasamudayaṃ, yatthassa attabhāvo nibbattati, tattha taṃ kammaṃ vipaccati. Yattha taṃ kammaṃ vipaccati, tattha tassa kammassa vipākaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti diṭṭhe vā dhamme, upapajje vā, apare vā pariyāye.

Any action performed with greed — born of greed, caused by greed, originating from greed: wherever one's selfhood turns up, there that action will ripen. Where that action ripens, there one will experience its fruit, either in this very life that has arisen or further along in the sequence.

Vipaccati is in the present tense (arises), and does not necessarily connote the certainty that is given to it in the translation. It's one of those "eternal truths" type of statements. I'd say it points to a high probability of occurrence, rather than of fixed determination. Other suttas qualify the performance of kamma with bahulīkata/frequently, to bring about the fruit.

In this respect, perhaps the way to reconcile the apparent disagreement between the 2 suttas is to say that SN 36.21 is denying that kamma is the effective cause of every type of feeling. On the other hand, AN 3.33 speaks of the 3 roots of kamma as a necessary condition for kamma, which in turn is the condition for future experience. This reading of kamma in AN 3.33 does seem to mirror AN 3.76, where the conjunction of 3 factors (kamma, establishment of consciousness in a particular dhātu, and craving) are needed for any of the 3 types of bhava/existence. The same set of similes are also employed (field, seed, moisture).