Do people who get murdered deserve it?

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santa100
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by santa100 »

tiltbilling wrote: And the suttas support this? All happiness and suffering arise from previous kamma? Since there are always other conditions at play, it is kamma that is the deciding factor that someone is happy or suffering? A man must reap according to his deeds?
Have you read AN 3.33 I provided above? Please tell exactly where in AN 3.33 that says "A man must reap according to his deeds"?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote:
tiltbilling wrote: And the suttas support this? All happiness and suffering arise from previous kamma? Since there are always other conditions at play, it is kamma that is the deciding factor that someone is happy or suffering? A man must reap according to his deeds?
Have you read AN 3.33 I provided above? Please tell exactly where in AN 3.33 that says "A man must reap according to his deeds"?
I am not saying that it does. I am simply trying to get at what your point is.


All happiness and suffering arise from previous kamma? Since there are always other conditions at play, it is kamma that is the deciding factor that someone is happy or suffering?So, you agree with this?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
santa100
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by santa100 »

How do you define "deciding factor"? If you sow a lemon seed but you don't provide water, sunlight, labor, etc...and you don't get the lemon fruit, is that lemon seed still a deciding factor for you?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote:How do you define "deciding factor"? If you sow a lemon seed but you don't provide water, sunlight, labor, etc...and you don't get the lemon fruit, is that lemon seed still a deciding factor for you?
I have already acknowledged the other factors at play: "Since there are always other conditions at play, it is kamma that is the deciding factor that someone is happy or suffering?" Can one experience sensations, feelings, have experiences that do not have kamma as a factor?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
santa100
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by santa100 »

I will repeat my question: "How do you define "deciding factor"? If you sow a lemon seed but you don't provide water, sunlight, labor, etc...and you don't get the lemon fruit, is that lemon seed still a deciding factor for you?"
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tiltbillings
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote:I will repeat my question: "How do you define "deciding factor"? If you sow a lemon seed but you don't provide water, sunlight, labor, etc...and you don't get the lemon fruit, is that lemon seed still a deciding factor for you?"
So, to get being murdered fruit there has to be a being murdered seed as well as other factors. If there were no being murdered seed, no murder.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
santa100
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by santa100 »

Seems like you finally read AN 3.33. I'd also add that if there's lemon seed but no water and other factors, then there's also no lemon fruit..
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reflection
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by reflection »

robertk wrote:why does the idea of randomness appeal to so many people?

this is an old post from the thread I referenced.
Mikenz66 wrote:
Dear Ven Dhammanando,

But what about the statement in the Angulimala Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Then Ven. Angulimala, early in the morning, having put on his robes and carrying his outer robe & bowl, went into Savatthi for alms. Now at that time a clod thrown by one person hit Ven. Angulimala on the body, a stone thrown by another person hit him on the body, and a potsherd thrown by still another person hit him on the body. So Ven. Angulimala — his head broken open and dripping with blood, his bowl broken, and his outer robe ripped to shreds — went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming from afar and on seeing him said to him: "Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!"

Why is this interpreted in terms of the kamma? If the kamma ripens only in his mindstream then how does it condition the throwing of clods, stones, etc, by the bodies of other mindsteams?

Mike

robert:.Where does the sutta say that kamma conditioned the people to throw clods stones etc? They were doing daily chores like throwing out things and these hit the venerable 'accidently'. It is like now when one sees a beautiful girl or an ugly beggar, one seeing vipaka is the result of kusala kamma done in the past, another of an akusala kamma. But the reasons are complex as to why , at any instant, kusala or akusala vipaka should arise, who could know that except a buddha
The fruit of kamma could as well be that he feels pain, is bleeding. That fits better in DO also. Because of birth, a body, because of a body, feelings, because of feelings, pain. The specific throwing of stones doesn't have to be caused by his kamma.
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robertk
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by robertk »

there is no where , anywhere where it is said that someones past kamma caused the throwing of stones by someone else.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote:Seems like you finally read AN 3.33. I'd also add that if there's lemon seed but no water and other factors, then there's also no lemon fruit..
I have read AN 3.33 years ago, and just recently.

But I wonder if you have read:
  • Samyutta Nikaya, IV 230. vedanasamyutta, sutta 21. page 1279 (Wisdom Publ.):

    "some feelings arise here originating from bile disorders... originating from phlegm disorders,.... originating from wind disorders....originating from an imbalance <of the three>.... produced by change of climate... produced by careless behavior... caused by assault... produced as the result of kamma: how some feelings arise here produced as the result of kamma one can know for oneself, and that is considered to be true in the world." Now when those ascetics and brahmins hold such a doctrine and view as this, 'Whatever a person experiences, whether it be pleasant or painful or neither-pleasant-nor-painful, that is caused by what was done in the past,' they over shoot what is considered to be true in the world. Therefore I say that this is wrong on the part of those ascetics and brahmins.”
This seems to suggest -- state -- kamma is not always a necessary factor for what we experience.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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reflection
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by reflection »

robertk wrote:there is no where , anywhere where it is said that someones past kamma caused the throwing of stones by someone else.
Sorry, I think I don't understand your point.
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robertk
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by robertk »

tiltbillings wrote:
santa100 wrote:Seems like you finally read AN 3.33. I'd also add that if there's lemon seed but no water and other factors, then there's also no lemon fruit..
I have read AN 3.33 years ago, and just recently.

But I wonder if you have read:
  • Samyutta Nikaya, IV 230. vedanasamyutta, sutta 21. page 1279 (Wisdom Publ.):

    "some feelings arise here originating from bile disorders... originating from phlegm disorders,.... originating from wind disorders....originating from an imbalance <of the three>.... produced by change of climate... produced by careless behavior... caused by assault... produced as the result of kamma: how some feelings arise here produced as the result of kamma one can know for oneself, and that is considered to be true in the world." Now when those ascetics and brahmins hold such a doctrine and view as this, 'Whatever a person experiences, whether it be pleasant or painful or neither-pleasant-nor-painful, that is caused by what was done in the past,' they over shoot what is considered to be true in the world. Therefore I say that this is wrong on the part of those ascetics and brahmins.”
This seems to suggest -- state -- kamma is not always a necessary factor for what we experience.
actually for the jati of vipaka kamma is always a necessary condition( but never the only one)


The Sammohavinodani, chapter on Paticcasamuppada (PTS)p181 , refers to this sutta and notes that there is no single fruit from a single cause:
"for here there is no single nor multiple fruit of any kind from a single cause, nor is there a single fruit from multiple causes, but only multiple fruit from multiple causes. BUT with one representative fruit and cause given thus 'avijja paccaya vinnana' etc. For the blessed one uses one representative cause and fruit when it is suitable for elegance in teaching and to suit the inclinations of those being taught. And he does so in some instances because it is a basic factor and in some instances because it is obvious and in some instances because of being not shared"...."he mentioned a single cause in the passage 'diseases due to phlegm'(in the sutta above) because of obviousness,for here it is phlegm that is obvious, not kamma and so on."
santa100
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by santa100 »

tiltbillings wrote: But I wonder if you have read:..
It's great that you mention SN 36.21 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html ). For this, ven. Bodhi offered his insight:
In the argument, vedana is being used in the narrower sense of painful feeling. Bile (pitta), phlegm (semha), and wind (vta) are the three bodily humours (dosa) of Indian Ayurveda medicine. It should be noted that the Buddha’s appeal to personal experience and common sense as the two criteria for rejecting the view that all feeling is caused by past kamma implies that the view against which he is arguing is the claim that past kamma is the sole and sufficient cause of all present feeling. However, the Buddha’s line of argument also implies that he is not denying kamma may induce the illnesses, etc., that serve as the immediate causes of the painful feelings; for this level of causality is not immediately perceptible to those who lack supernormal cognitive faculties. Thus kamma can still be an indirect cause for the painful feeling directly induced by the first seven causes. It is the sufficient cause only in the eighth case, though even then it must operate in conjunction with various other conditions
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tiltbillings
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: But I wonder if you have read:..
It's great that you mention SN 36.21 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html ). For this, ven. Bodhi offered his insight:
In the argument, vedana is being used in the narrower sense of painful feeling. Bile (pitta), phlegm (semha), and wind (vta) are the three bodily humours (dosa) of Indian Ayurveda medicine. It should be noted that the Buddha’s appeal to personal experience and common sense as the two criteria for rejecting the view that all feeling is caused by past kamma implies that the view against which he is arguing is the claim that past kamma is the sole and sufficient cause of all present feeling. However, the Buddha’s line of argument also implies that he is not denying kamma may induce the illnesses, etc., that serve as the immediate causes of the painful feelings; for this level of causality is not immediately perceptible to those who lack supernormal cognitive faculties. Thus kamma can still be an indirect cause for the painful feeling directly induced by the first seven causes. It is the sufficient cause only in the eighth case, though even then it must operate in conjunction with various other conditions
The point of the text, however, is that kamma may not be a factor is one's untimely death.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mr Man
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by Mr Man »

robertk wrote:yes here is the link again

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... hilit=hell
But how does this relate to the idea that "randomness appeals"?
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