Do people who get murdered deserve it?

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Anagarika
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by Anagarika »

"Do people who get murdered deserve it?"

Murder by definition is a criminal act, an intentional killing committed with malice aforethought. No one murdered deserved to be the victim of a crime.

By definition, no act by the victim caused or contributed to their death.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
BuddhaSoup wrote:By definition, no act by the victim caused or contributed to their death.
People can though, as Bhikkhu Pesala pointed out, put themselves in dangerous situations by virtue of their intentional choices ( = cetena = action = kamma)

If such choices (kamma) can increase the likelihood of death, its hard to say that they in no way contributed to the death, even if it's not their "fault" per se that they were murdered and they certainly didn't "deserve it". One who is interested in their welfare should endeavour to mitigate their potential for being harmed, and the Buddha gave lay people sermons on such topics, making recommendations to avoid gambling, drunkenness, friends lacking in virtue, hanging about in dodgy places at night etc.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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robertk
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by robertk »

this is from the Dhammapada commentary (taken from an old post by Ven. Dhammanando).

In the time of the Sammāsambuddha a village near the gate of Sāvatthī was burnt down, a blazing wisp of hay rose up from the flames and alighted on the neck of a crow flying in the sky. The crow, screeching, fell to the ground and died.

In the ocean, too, a certain ship got aground. The sailors, not seeing any obstruction from below, cast lots; the unlucky number fell into the hand of the captain’s wife. They then said: ‘Let not all of us perish on account of one woman; we must throw her into the sea.’ The captain, saying, ‘I cannot bear to see her floating in the water,’ tied a bag of sand to her neck and had her thrown in. At that moment the ship moved off like an arrow shot from a bow.

A certain bhikkhu lived in a cave. A huge mountain peak fell and closed up the entrance. On the seventh day it moved away of itself.

They told these three stories to the Sammāsambuddha, as he sat in Jeta’s Grove teaching the Dhamma. The Teacher said: ‘This kamma was not the work of others; it was done by the crow itself,’ etc., and he showed the related past:

The crow in a previous existence was a man, who, being unable to tame a vicious ox, tied a bundle of straw to its neck and set it on fire, causing the ox’s death. Now that action did not allow the crow to escape even though he flew into the sky.

The woman who was thrown into the sea was also a woman in a previous existence. A certain dog was devoted to her, and whenever she went to the forest he would go and come back with her. Men would mock her, saying: ‘Here comes the dog with his bítch!’ She felt embarrassed and being unable to prevent the dog, tied a bag of sand around his neck and threw him into the water. That kamma did not allow the woman to escape even in mid-ocean.

The bhikkhu in a previous existence was a cowherd. A certain iguana entered a hole and the cowherd closed the entrance with a handful of broken twigs. Seven days later he came and opened it and the iguana came out trembling. Out of pity he spared its life. That kamma did not allow the bhikkhu to escape even while seated in a mountain cave.

Connecting these three stories the Sammāsambuddha then spoke this verse:

na antalikkhe na samuddamajjhe,
na pabbatānaṃ vivaraṃ pavissa.
na vijjate so jagatippadeso,
yatthaṭṭhito mucceyya pāpakammā ti.

“Not in the sky, nor in mid-ocean, nor yet in the clefts of mountains — nowhere in the world is there any place where, having entered, one will escape from the result of an evil deed.”
(Dhammapada 127)
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manas
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by manas »

robertk wrote:this is from the Dhammapada commentary (taken from an old post by Ven. Dhammanando).

In the time of the Sammāsambuddha a village near the gate of Sāvatthī was burnt down, a blazing wisp of hay rose up from the flames and alighted on the neck of a crow flying in the sky. The crow, screeching, fell to the ground and died.

In the ocean, too, a certain ship got aground. The sailors, not seeing any obstruction from below, cast lots; the unlucky number fell into the hand of the captain’s wife. They then said: ‘Let not all of us perish on account of one woman; we must throw her into the sea.’ The captain, saying, ‘I cannot bear to see her floating in the water,’ tied a bag of sand to her neck and had her thrown in. At that moment the ship moved off like an arrow shot from a bow.

A certain bhikkhu lived in a cave. A huge mountain peak fell and closed up the entrance. On the seventh day it moved away of itself.

They told these three stories to the Sammāsambuddha, as he sat in Jeta’s Grove teaching the Dhamma. The Teacher said: ‘This kamma was not the work of others; it was done by the crow itself,’ etc., and he showed the related past:

The crow in a previous existence was a man, who, being unable to tame a vicious ox, tied a bundle of straw to its neck and set it on fire, causing the ox’s death. Now that action did not allow the crow to escape even though he flew into the sky.

The woman who was thrown into the sea was also a woman in a previous existence. A certain dog was devoted to her, and whenever she went to the forest he would go and come back with her. Men would mock her, saying: ‘Here comes the dog with his bítch!’ She felt embarrassed and being unable to prevent the dog, tied a bag of sand around his neck and threw him into the water. That kamma did not allow the woman to escape even in mid-ocean.

The bhikkhu in a previous existence was a cowherd. A certain iguana entered a hole and the cowherd closed the entrance with a handful of broken twigs. Seven days later he came and opened it and the iguana came out trembling. Out of pity he spared its life. That kamma did not allow the bhikkhu to escape even while seated in a mountain cave.

Connecting these three stories the Sammāsambuddha then spoke this verse:

na antalikkhe na samuddamajjhe,
na pabbatānaṃ vivaraṃ pavissa.
na vijjate so jagatippadeso,
yatthaṭṭhito mucceyya pāpakammā ti.

“Not in the sky, nor in mid-ocean, nor yet in the clefts of mountains — nowhere in the world is there any place where, having entered, one will escape from the result of an evil deed.”
(Dhammapada 127)
How sad that beings treat each other with cruelty, on occasion. I know from my side, that I have mostly done away with cruelty, I don't wish harm even on those who have wronged me. But it still gets heaped on me, fairly regularly. There must be a reason for that, and kamma-vipaka is the only one I can think of. I must have created the causes for it in a previous existence, otherwise I don't get why someone who mostly wishes everyone well, could cop so much meanness from others in one lifetime. But as I said, I don't wish those (who put me down) any harm, it just makes me feel a little sad...that's all. (On a positive note, I am finding that the more metta I radiate - and, the better I feel about myself - the less people tend to put me down...so even in the short term, the Dhamma is helping me to overcome it).

metta
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
rohana
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by rohana »

retrofuturist wrote:If such choices (kamma) can increase the likelihood of death, its hard to say that they in no way contributed to the death, even if it's not their "fault" per se that they were murdered and they certainly didn't "deserve it". One who is interested in their welfare should endeavour to mitigate their potential for being harmed, and the Buddha gave lay people sermons on such topics, making recommendations to avoid gambling, drunkenness, friends lacking in virtue, hanging about in dodgy places at night etc.
Particularly, by cultivating skillful states of mind such as the brahmavihāras, they can decrease the likelihood of bad results occurring.
  • A third lesson from the principle of karma is that developing the brahma-viharas can also help mitigate the results of your past bad actions. The Buddha explains this point with an analogy: If you put a lump of salt into a glass of water, you can't drink the water in the glass. But if you put that lump of salt into a river, you could then drink the water in the river, because the river contains so much more water than salt. When you develop the four brahma-viharas, your mind is like the river. The skillful karma of developing these attitudes in the present is so expansive that whatever results of past bad actions may arise, you hardly notice them.

    A proper understanding of karma also helps to correct the false idea that if people are suffering they deserve to suffer, so you might as well just leave them alone. When you catch yourself thinking in those terms, you have to keep four principles in mind.

    First, remember that when you look at people, you can't see all the karmic seeds from their past actions. They may be experiencing the results of past bad actions, but you don't know when those seeds will stop sprouting. Also, you have no idea what other seeds, whatever wonderful latent potentials, will sprout in their place.
    Bringing Wisdom to the Brahma-viharas - Thanissaro Bhikkhu
"Delighting in existence, O monks, are gods and men; they are attached to existence, they revel in existence. When the Dhamma for the cessation of existence is being preached to them, their minds do not leap towards it, do not get pleased with it, do not get settled in it, do not find confidence in it. That is how, monks, some lag behind."
- It. p 43
hermitwin
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by hermitwin »

Yes.
Otherwise, they wont get murdered.

Dr. Dukkha wrote:I've begun to build my own understanding of kamma. When someone does a good or bad deed, that deed is given a number of intensity or severity to the decimal which makes a specific shape and that shape is made of the trail that the road to enlightenment is made of. That deed slides across the road and passes opportunities on the road that it can fill up a spot that a reward or punishment can be acquired. But when the shape reaches the exact slot where it fits, the kamma slides in and takes action. So I came up with the idea that kamma doesn't hit us at random times, it has it's place to fit in; a specific time for everything.

So now I have a seperate question. And by asking this, I'm not trying to offend anyone. If someone went to a mall, for instance (completely hypothetical), and shot up a bunch of people, since kamma is supposed to cause consequences for people's actions, would those people he shot deserve it?
hermitwin
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by hermitwin »

The murder rate in US is 5 for 100,000 population.
That is 0.005% of the population.
99.995% of people are not murdered.
So, only a very small percentage of people are murdered.
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Mr Man
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by Mr Man »

hermitwin wrote:Yes.
Otherwise, they wont get murdered.
And are US citizens more deserving of being Murdered?

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/09/16/u ... -fbi-data/

Are UK residents more meritorious?

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/mu ... 62974.html

:)
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Dhammanando
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by Dhammanando »

hermitwin wrote:Yes.
Otherwise, they wont get murdered.
Oh? Do you mean that the statements “Jones’ death by murder was the ripening of a past unwholesome kamma” and “Jones deserved to be murdered” would differ only in their wording, not in their meaning?

Editorial addition:

Consider the following statements, spoken in the aftermath of Mrs. Jones, an old lady, getting beaten to death by muggers:

1. Mrs. Jones’ death by murder was the vipāka of a weighty unwholesome kamma performed in a former life.

2. Were it not for that past unwholesome kamma her murder would not have happened, therefore Mrs. Jones only got what she deserved. Her fate was well-merited. She got a taste of her own medicine. It serves the old woman right.

3. Since Mrs. Jones deserved her fate, her muggers were only doing what was right and just and should be commended for it.

If we grant that #1 is true (which we ought), then it seems to me that the only way to avoid the reductio ad absurdum that culminates in #3 is by rejecting #2.

How then do we go about rejecting #2?
Last edited by Dhammanando on Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

No one “deserves” to get murdered — not even military combatants in warfare.

However, in a society that glorifies warfare and guns, even the innocent are more likely to get killed, so it stands to reason that more people will be murdered in the US than in the UK, where the death penalty is abolished, and gun ownership is more strictly regulated.

Boy with fake gun killed by police in US

US police have good reason to be wary if they see a kid carrying a firearm.

A 14-year-old boy charged in the death of a teacher
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Mr Man
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by Mr Man »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:No one “deserves” to get murdered — not even military combatants in warfare.

However, in a society that glorifies warfare and guns, even the innocent are more likely to get killed, so it stands to reason that more people will be murdered in the US than in the UK, where the death penalty is abolished, and gun ownership is more strictly regulated.

Boy with fake gun killed by police in US

US police have good reason to be wary if they see a kid carrying a firearm.

A 14-year-old boy charged in the death of a teacher
Thank you Bhante.
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cooran
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

Why would there be a Precept against killing living beings if they are only getting their "just desserts"?

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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dagon
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by dagon »

The Buddha taught us not to speculate on karma – but to understand that the outcomes of our intentions are our only property that we will take into out next lives.

Saying that someone deserves to be murdered only serves to block out ability/willingness to have compassion for all those affected by the murder

Violence leads to more violence

Kindness and compassion leads to more kindness and compassion

Kindness and compassion helps to prepare our minds to be able to develop insight

Metta
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Aloka
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by Aloka »

.


When I read this thread, I can't help thinking about what is said in connection with kamma in sutta AN 4.77 "Unconjecturable"

"There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...

"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
With kind regards,

Aloka
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Mr Man
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Re: Do people who get murdered deserve it?

Post by Mr Man »

Would to hold a view that such and such a thing has happened in this life as the result of an action in a past life be a sign of madness?
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