My monk teacher refused almsfood and handles money?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

That's BS. As others have said, a true monk accepts whatever is given, if it's allowable, of course.

Especially so when you consider the traditional house-to-house alms gathering, where what is offered is very much leftovers, or a little extra that has been prepared for monks.

Lay followers offer alms/requisites, not a deluxe catering service.

Metta,
Retro.

[kmath]

How to Tell the Difference Between a Monk and a Monkey

Offer some money and some bananas

1. If he accepts the bananas and rejects the money, he's a monkey, not a monk
2. If he accepts the money and rejects the bananas, he's not a scrupulous monk.
3. If he accepts the bananas, and explains that money is not allowable for monks, he is a monk, not a monkey
4. If he rejects the bananas and the money, and explains that money is not allowable for monks, and that bananas are only allowable at the right time, he's a monk, not a monkey.

[lyndon taylor]

It seems some people have more respect for themselves and what they eat than they do respect for the monks and their diet. It is not really a lay followers place to be telling monks how to interpret the Vinaya, when the lay followers have no intention of following it themselves. Differing interpretations of the Vinaya have more to do with traditions within sects, and the interpretations of the monk elders, (the novice monks have little say in it) it is certainly not for the lay follower to be telling monks they should eat food that's going bad, and if you don't like the way one particular temple interprets the vinaya, find another one that will take your rotten bananas.

[appicchato]

...what is offered is very much leftovers, or a little extra that has been prepared for monks.

Not to quibble, but, at least in Thailand (in my experience (seven rains (and counting))), no 'leftovers' are ever offered...

It would also seem some people need to get a grip...

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Not to quibble, but, at least in Thailand (in my experience (seven rains (and counting))), no 'leftovers' are ever offered...

That's interesting to know, bhante. I was actually thinking of back in the Buddha's time when I wrote that, though I'm sure that even nowadays that in more impoverished or drought-affected areas, there's a need for both sides to be a bit more pragmatic.

Perhaps it depends on what we mean by "leftovers" because I wasn't inferring scraps off someone's plate or anything, for example... what differentiates "leftovers" from "pre-prepared meal"?

Metta,
Retro.

[appicchato]

...I wasn't inferring scraps off someone's plate or anything, for example... what differentiates "leftovers" from "pre-prepared meal"?

Hi Paul...perhaps the uneaten portions of someone's meal...although actually it's the other way round here...people inviting monks to their homes will prepare a meal, serve it, and then partake of what isn't consumed by them...

Be good...

[retrofuturist]

Greetings bhante,

Yes, I've been involved in offerings sessions like that before at Buddhist temples. They're nice.

Metta,
Retro.

[DNS]

This has been my experience too as a participant and as an observer. Lay people typically want to prepare a good, tasty meal to please the monks. Some do it for merit making and some do it just to be a good donor and host by providing a good and plentiful meal. There was a recent article at buddhistchannel about how the head monks in Sri Lanka were requesting that lay people not prepare such rich foods, because so many monks are getting ill with rich-food illnesses, including high cholesterol, gout, etc.

The Buddha typically ate rice gruel and fruits; very simple foods by today's standards; maybe even for back then too, but not sure.

[mikenz66]

Not to quibble, but, at least in Thailand (in my experience (seven rains (and counting))), no 'leftovers' are ever offered...

It would also seem some people need to get a grip...

I would say that if one is not freely giving something that one considers to be good there is very little point in the exercise (unless the monk would otherwise starve, which is unlikely in this case). There is not much merit in giving something that one just wants to get rid of.

On the other hand, it doesn't sound very skilful to refuse something. Hoever, it could be the particular circumstance. In situations I've seen, in Thai wats here or in Thailand, a large amount of food is donated on alms rounds (in the Thai case) and by people bringing it directly (in both cases). In those situations refusing any food would be very odd indeed. The Bhikkhus take what they need and the lay people finish the rest, or distribute it.

On the other hand, some monks in the West may be living alone, and if too much food is brought to them it will just go to waste. Perhaps that is the situation that Dr. Dukkha is describing. In that case it may be necessary for the bhikkhu to explicitly refuse food if there is too much already. Accepting it all and letting it rot would not be very skilful.


Mike

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

On the other hand, some monks in the West may be living alone, and if too much food is brought to them it will just go to waste. Perhaps that is the situation that Dr. Dukkha is describing. In that case it may be necessary for the bhikkhu to explicitly refuse food if there is too much already. Accepting it all and letting it rot would not be very skilful.

That is one reason why I sometimes refuse food that is offered, and I explain why. However, from the first post it is clear that is not the case here. Dr Dukkha asked before bringing the food if it was wanted, and then it was refused on seeing it. Monks do not have to eat everything that is offered. They can eat what is good for their health, and pass on the left-overs to others, or give it to animals.

From the donor's point of view, it's better to offer the best quality food, and here the best bananas are those that are ripe, and ready to eat. For monks who store up food (which is not allowable), yellow bananas may be better. Food should be offered with one's own hand, with respect, and wishing to attain the cessation of craving, rather than wishing for heavenly rebirth, or for praise. Then the merit will be maximised.

If the recipient is content to receive inferior things, which have been discarded by others, it is still a very meritorious deed, as long as it is done with love and respect.

[Vakkali]

Is it possible that different Theravadin countries have developed slightly different dāna cultures? I wonder if Sri Lankans have a different attitude towards the perceived quality of food offerings than, say, Thai forest monks do.

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

It is a result of the decline in the monastic traditions. Monks who accept and use money, and who are spoiled by donors, forget that their very life depends on the gifts of others. Some monks look down on vegetarian meals as being inferior, and expect a car to be sent to bring them to the house for alms, or they expect donors to bring almsfood to the temple every day. The almsbowl is rarely even used for taking meals in the monasteries that I have stayed at, except for the Thai Forest monasteries.

When I first stayed at the Burmese Vihāra in Wembley with Myaung Mya Sayādaw U Nyanika, we used to eat from the bowl with our hands, sitting on the floor. Nowadays, the monks sit at a dining table eating from plates, with cutlery, and guess who does the washing up?

Very few monks walk for alms in the West, but in Burma it is the duty of every young monk. The Buddha walked for alms even when he was 80 years of age.

The ordination procedure makes it clear what the four basic requisites are for monks: alms collected from door to door, rags collected from a rubbish heap, the root of a tree for shelter, and fermented cow's urine with gall nuts for medicine.

If donors offer luxurious meals in their home or in the Vihāra, it can be accepted, but it should not be expected.

[Dr. Dukkha]

Some more info about these monks. I don't know what to think about this, but my monk guarenteed me that I wouldn't reach enlightenment in this lifetime. Should I be offended or humbled?

Also, how long and how often are dhamma talks supposed to be given? There's one every week after meditation class that the monks give but it's only five minutes. And I never get invited to anything on uposatha (I don't know if there are gathering on the full moon with the sangha like there used to be around the Buddha's time). The monks are always busy with something so I feel like they are spending more time with the Sri Lankans than us Americans because I don't get invited to any dhamma talks. I don't feel like the monks are racist because they sometimes call to say they miss me and my other American friend when we don't attend meditation. But are there supposed to be more dhamma talks and I'm just not invited? I'd go every off day to learn the dhamma with the sangha if I could.

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

Some more info about these monks. I don't know what to think about this, but my monk guaranteed me that I wouldn't reach enlightenment in this lifetime. Should I be offended or humbled?

Your monk has no way to guarantee any such thing, unless you confessed to murdering your mother or father.

It may be very difficult to reach enlightenment in this lifetime, even to gain the first stage of Stream-winning, and for someone with mental health issues, it would be especially difficult. However, if you keep practising, any mental health issues that you might have may be resolved, and you will then be able to practise with full faith and effort.

I think your monk is not well trained — it's hard to find any really good monks these days. When you get a chance, go to attend a vipassanā course with Bhante Gunaratna or any other well known teacher with a good reputation. Learn what you can from your monk, but don't take to heart what he says.

The only person who is truly hopeless of attaining deep insight or the path and its fruition is the lazy person.

[waterchan]

Thank you Bhante; as always to the point - even if some times we have too much dust in our eyes to see it.

Ajahn Brahm in the talk linked below discusses fault finding - along with many other things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHXkwj_0MIU

You could start listening at 24:53 min but the whole talk is well worth listening to.

metta
paul

Ajahn Brahm also publicly encourages laypeople to report unscrupulous monks. So the "fault-finding" in this topic is one he would clearly approve of. Indeed, according to the origin stories in the Vinaya, "fault-finding" by laypeople is precisely why the Buddha laid down many Vinaya rules.