Bare Attention Concerns

[Myotai]

Just listening to Thanissaro's talk entitled 'Delusion Concentration' and I think he has hit the nail right on the head for me regarding my OP.

He states that when we get to a point when following the breath when we drop it after sensing some pleasure (for me its a physical sense of not being aware of the body anymore)....instead of staying with the breath I have been telling myself that this feeling is somehow legitimate and to be valued rather than seeing it as a sense object like any other; and returning to the breath.

Obvious to some maybe, but wasn't to me!

[daverupa]

He states that when we get to a point when following the breath when we drop it after sensing some pleasure (for me its a physical sense of not being aware of the body anymore)....instead of staying with the breath I have been telling myself that this feeling is somehow legitimate and to be valued rather than seeing it as a sense object like any other; and returning to the breath.

The second tetrad of anapanasati suggests that, experiencing such pleasure while breathing in & breathing out, one can learn to calm the mind's tendency to build mentalities on/about the feeling, and in this way calm the mind's tendency to chain together thoughts and sensations into judgements, narratives, and so forth.

I found it to be easier to understand the technique through the first tetrad. Here, calming six-sense-body-intention-compilations is akin to backing away from controlling the breath and the rest, calming the whole body so one is less and less (re-)active, nor as heavily involved with that process. Just as with the eye sense base, so too with the mind sense base.

With the second tetrad there is a focus on the mind in terms of feelings, which may be where you're currently playing: in this case, you can calm the mind-intention-compilations (citta-sankhara) with a similar technique as for calming six-sense-body-intention-compilations (kaya-sankhara).

During anapanasati, all this happens with the breath as the worktable; if the breath gets lost, probably papanca happened, but that's just a time to reestablish mindfulness and get back to work:

Just as when two or three drops of water fall onto an iron pan heated all day: Slow is the falling of the drops of water, but they quickly vanish & disappear. In the same way, there is the case where a certain person is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions. As he is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions, then — from time to time, owing to lapses in mindfulness — he is assailed by memories & resolves associated with acquisitions. Slow is the arising of his mindfulness, but then he quickly abandons [those memories & resolves], dispels them, demolishes them, & wipes them out of existence.

[Myotai]

He states that when we get to a point when following the breath when we drop it after sensing some pleasure (for me its a physical sense of not being aware of the body anymore)....instead of staying with the breath I have been telling myself that this feeling is somehow legitimate and to be valued rather than seeing it as a sense object like any other; and returning to the breath.

The second tetrad of anapanasati suggests that, experiencing such pleasure while breathing in & breathing out, one can learn to calm the mind's tendency to build mentalities on/about the feeling, and in this way calm the mind's tendency to chain together thoughts and sensations into judgements, narratives, and so forth.

I found it to be easier to understand the technique through the first tetrad. Here, calming six-sense-body-intention-compilations is akin to backing away from controlling the breath and the rest, calming the whole body so one is less and less (re-)active, nor as heavily involved with that process. Just as with the eye sense base, so too with the mind sense base.

With the second tetrad there is a focus on the mind in terms of feelings, which may be where you're currently playing: in this case, you can calm the mind-intention-compilations (citta-sankhara) with a similar technique as for calming six-sense-body-intention-compilations (kaya-sankhara).

During anapanasati, all this happens with the breath as the worktable; if the breath gets lost, probably papanca happened, but that's just a time to reestablish mindfulness and get back to work:

Just as when two or three drops of water fall onto an iron pan heated all day: Slow is the falling of the drops of water, but they quickly vanish & disappear. In the same way, there is the case where a certain person is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions. As he is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions, then — from time to time, owing to lapses in mindfulness — he is assailed by memories & resolves associated with acquisitions. Slow is the arising of his mindfulness, but then he quickly abandons [those memories & resolves], dispels them, demolishes them, & wipes them out of existence.

Thanks Dave,

So would you say that the pleasant feelings often accompanying practices are inherently a trap, to be ignored (unless pursuing Jhana)?

My understanding of traditions like Chan actively encourage this state as its an indication that we're 'just sitting' free from agitation from external stimuli ('dropping off body and mind')...what do you think?

[tiltbillings]

My understanding of traditions like Chan actively encourage this state as its an indication that we're 'just sitting' free from agitation from external stimuli ('dropping off body and mind')...what do you think?

And just to add, that is not "bare attention."

[Myotai]

My understanding of traditions like Chan actively encourage this state as its an indication that we're 'just sitting' free from agitation from external stimuli ('dropping off body and mind')...what do you think?

And just to add, that is not "bare attention."

So what would 'Bare Attention' be in the Theravadin conext?

[daverupa]

So would you say that the pleasant feelings often accompanying practices are inherently a trap, to be ignored (unless pursuing Jhana)?

I think that pleasant feeling (piti and sukha are mentioned) are to be observed in order to catch sight of the process of citta-sankhara in order to calm that process; this calming of processes, this making it an object to let go, leads to jhana, and is basically the point of anapanasati. You can do brahmaviharas and guard the sense gates and be mindful and abide with satipatthana and call all of it meditation, but so far none of it requires a seated position, though they can be pursued in that way. But seated meditation is scrubbing the hindrances in order to open the way to jhana - it is a specific goal of seated meditation, and encouragement to practice jhana were the last words of the Buddha.

My understanding of traditions like Chan actively encourage this state as its an indication that we're 'just sitting' free from agitation from external stimuli ('dropping off body and mind')...what do you think?

I did Zen for a while out of Kanzeon Zen Center back in the 1990s. The instruction I initially received was to sit and gently stare, basically, and clear the mind and watch the breath. There was no doctrine to speak of at first, but the learning process was instead primarily an unfolding within discussions with the teacher(s) there, with some people carrying around favorite Sutras or other works.

But the ultimate lack of engagement was a dead-end, for me, as merely observing the stream of thoughts meant there was no right effort. Bare attention, by contrast, is only similar in that whatever occurs is something to be aware of & not something to repress and not notice, but beyond this initial establishing of mindfulness there then follows a slew of tasks one is enjoined to undertake, primarily dealing with the hindrances. The Zen I was taught said nothing about this.

[tiltbillings]

My understanding of traditions like Chan actively encourage this state as its an indication that we're 'just sitting' free from agitation from external stimuli ('dropping off body and mind')...what do you think?

And just to add, that is not "bare attention."

So what would 'Bare Attention' be in the Theravadin conext?

Dave's directly above addresses some of your question as does this: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 58#p264315