Ticks and fleas

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:
seeker242 wrote:
Virgo wrote:Here some of the problems with rebirth in samsara are evident.

Because we love and are attached to one animal
Or, not because of "attachment" but because of "compassion".
What about compassion for the flea who dies by the press or your thumb and possibly reappears in a hell? Is that compassion? Many beings are reborn in hell. if you had not killed it, would it be in hell now?
Geez, Kevin, if you get a tape worm, you will let it have its way in your body, even as it makes its way to your brain to it damage up there?

Or how about an infection of the acanthamoeba parasite that would eat your cornea, causing considerable pain and likely blindness? You would not kill it, cause its demise?

And you would not kill the fleas that would be harboring the Black Death, letting them spread it far and wide?

And if some random human infected with fleas, lice, ticks, and other personal livestock, the person should just suffer and possibly die from bacterial, viral, and parasite infection mediated by these pest?

Your position makes no sense.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:
No, that is simply wrong. It is impossible for Ariyas to kill.
Are you still claiming to be ariya that you know this as an undisputed fact? So, an ariya would say that any medication that killed any living bacteria or parasite is simply wrong, according to you? The person or animal in question must just suffer and die?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Virgo
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by Virgo »

tiltbillings wrote:
What about compassion for the flea who dies by the press or your thumb and possibly reappears in a hell? Is that compassion? Many beings are reborn in hell. if you had not killed it, would it be in hell now?
Geez, Kevin, if you get a tape worm, you will let it have its way in your body, even as it makes its way to your brain to it damage up there?

Or how about an infection of the acanthamoeba parasite that would eat your cornea, causing considerable pain and likely blindness? You would not kill it, cause its demise?

And you would not kill the fleas that would be harboring the Black Death, letting them spread it far and wide?

And if some random human infected with fleas, lice, ticks, and other personal livestock, the person should just suffer and possibly die from bacterial, viral, and parasite infection mediated by these pest?

Your position makes no sense.
You'd be better off not killing it. Of course, I do not know whether I would be able to actually do that or not. Nevertheless, killing even such a creature would still be akusala kamma pattha, not as bad as killing for some other reasons, but akusala kamma none-the-less, and the result would be unwholesome.

Kevin
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Virgo
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by Virgo »

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
No, that is simply wrong. It is impossible for Ariyas to kill.
Are you still claiming to be ariya that you know this as an undisputed fact? So, an ariya would say that any medication that killed any living bacteria or parasite is simply wrong, according to you? The person or animal in question must just suffer and die?
No, it's just standard Theravada teachings.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
No, that is simply wrong. It is impossible for Ariyas to kill.
Are you still claiming to be ariya that you know this as an undisputed fact? So, an ariya would say that any medication that killed any living bacteria or parasite is simply wrong, according to you? The person or animal in question must just suffer and die?
No, it's just standard Theravada teachings.
I have not seen any irrefutable evidence that standard Theravada teachings needs to be so absolutist. If I thought for a moment that one must, because it was supposedly the what the Buddha absolutely taught, that one must let the fleas and ticks live to the detriment and death of the dog, I'd say to hell with these teachings, burn my books, and walk away from it, never looking back. Fortunately, the Buddha's teachings are not the black and white, either/or horror of such absolutism.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Sanjay PS
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by Sanjay PS »

Virgo wrote:
Sanjay PS wrote: What is mentioned makes sense . With these noble thoughts of trying our best not to intentionally harm any beings , we must dig deeper and look further inside ourselves whether the roots of lust, anger , hatred , conceit , jealousy , ill will , harbored since time immemorial , is loosing its hold on us . If these base emotions continue to be strong with us , and yet we focus mostly only on the intricate details , i think somewhere down the road , we may have unknowingly forgotten our basics .

Also the contemplation of dukkha in everything that we do , is a pointer of the way life has been , is , and will always be..........the noble truth of living.............

sanjay
Hi Sanjay. What you may not realize is that killing is always done with dosa. Why is one beings life more important than another? It is natural that we way think in this way but really is it wholesome or unwholesome? It is good to know these things. Equinimity should arise at times.

All the best,

Kevin
Hi Kevin,

Its compassion that is important , not the attachment to it .

Killing is dosa , yes , but so long as there is malice and hatred mixed with it .

Even in the Tipitaka , there is a clear mention by Lord Buddha , that having to resort to this base deed , so long as it is in self-defence does not will the force of kamma .What is important , is the forming mental impressions should not be of hatred , anger and ill-will . In the case of tick and fleas and other beings , it may not be in self-defence , but for the welfare of pets at large, or in many cases we humans ourselves ( we harbor so many unimaginable parasites and bacteria and get sick sooner or later , having but no choice to take whatever medication , in bringing down the infestation levels by eradicating that what caused the imbalance ) . Yes , it is a one way action , there is no disagreement to it , but it is the situation , intensity and intent of killing that matters .

If for example i have strived in living a life in trying my best in not knowingly kill any being however tiny it may be , whatever be the cause . But on the other hand if i find that someone insulting me ,hurting me , gets me agitated and worked up , instead of having compassion and kindness for the person and situation , then it goes on to show a contradiction .

There are four kinds of acts :

1) Intentionally
2) Unintentionally
3) Knowingly
4) Unknowingly

The above are inter-dependent , yet very different . Its worthwhile to contemplate on them, and find meaning and answers for ourselves .

More than worlds of hell and heaven , what is really stirring to feel is that whatever we do , however horrific and beatific be the planes , there is dukkha . To build a hut or make a dwelling , we knowingly or unintentionally kill multitudes of beings. Living is dukkha , one just cannot escape this fact . Nature torches this reality of life both on a macro level and also at the tiniest atomic level , where birth , growth , decay and vaporizing , flashes by . Fundamentally the same , the sorrow of change , of parting away from an illusion.........

And i think Arhants or Ariyas will have no interest whatsoever to have pets , just as it is completely meaningless for them to lead a family life .

sanjay
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

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Anagarika
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by Anagarika »

Kevin had earlier posted that my views may cause me to be reborn in the hell realm. He did subsequently soften this post. I wanted to respond that as long as beer is served in hell, I will survive.

I'm writing again now that wiser voices have weighed in , to suggest to Kevin that his tone is somewhat strident and 'black and white.' It can be good to be resolute about certain issues ( ie environmental negligence is harming the planet), but a lot of what we encounter in life arises in some very grey areas. I mentioned earlier the Middle Way, the idea that extremes (self-mortification vs sensuality) do not lead us to insight and release. My hope for myself, and for you, Kevin, is that we can cultivate our understanding along this path, learn from the kalayana mitta here, and strive to gain release from the stress and suffering that these attachments bring us. In other words, try not to be too hard on others, and in turn, yourself.

So, if I do end up in a lower realm for killing ticks, I will meet you there, and I'll buy the first pint. :)
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Virgo
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by Virgo »

BuddhaSoup wrote: So, if I do end up in a lower realm for killing ticks, I will meet you there, and I'll buy the first pint. :)
Thanks mate but I don't drink. :)

I do take sila very seriously, but I think this is prudent. What I try to present here is the ideal, and I think it is fair to say that people should protect their vows like they protect their own two eyes, even allowing harm to oneself - in certain cases - not to commit negative actions. I believe that even with akusala citta, if necessary, one should refrain from strong negative actions. Of course, if we commit some, we should not gain more dosa or unwholesomeness over it. If you go and kill a bunch of ticks tomorrow to save a dog, you should realize that it was wrong as in you should definitely know that it is akusala kamma pattha, but you should not have dosa about it. Samsara is not perfect and we are only human. All cetana is conditioned in many ways, so there is no doer, just action done - not a person or a self. This is not an excuse to commit negativity but we must know with insight - even at the conceptual level - that it is not a person ultimately who does thiese things - just conditioned moments of nama and ruupa. And we should know that at least they were small creatures and so on, and that at least we helped the dog. Yet we should still understand that it is because of our defilements that we did so, nevertheless, we should not get worked up about it. Equanimity is needed here too.

Sorry, would write more but I have to go at the moment.

All the best,

Kevin

P.S. The Buddha gave the similie of the salt crystal which is very important. Yet we have to remember, there has to be a lot of WATER for the salt to dilute well...

And, in the end, these things are not-self and arise by conditions. We have a long road ahead.
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Virgo
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by Virgo »

Sanjay PS wrote: Killing is dosa , yes , but so long as there is malice and hatred mixed with it .
Hi Sanjay, dosa is aversion, so malice and hatred are just aspects of it.

Kevin
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tiltbillings
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:
Sanjay PS wrote: Killing is dosa , yes , but so long as there is malice and hatred mixed with it .
Hi Sanjay, dosa is aversion, so malice and hatred are just aspects of it.

Kevin
And one can have an aversion -- and thusly malice and hatred and fear -- towards the not killing of fleas, ticks, etc.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
What about compassion for the flea who dies by the press or your thumb and possibly reappears in a hell? Is that compassion? Many beings are reborn in hell. if you had not killed it, would it be in hell now?
Geez, Kevin, if you get a tape worm, you will let it have its way in your body, even as it makes its way to your brain to it damage up there?

Or how about an infection of the acanthamoeba parasite that would eat your cornea, causing considerable pain and likely blindness? You would not kill it, cause its demise?

And you would not kill the fleas that would be harboring the Black Death, letting them spread it far and wide?

And if some random human infected with fleas, lice, ticks, and other personal livestock, the person should just suffer and possibly die from bacterial, viral, and parasite infection mediated by these pest?

Your position makes no sense.
You'd be better off not killing it. Of course, I do not know whether I would be able to actually do that or not. Nevertheless, killing even such a creature would still be akusala kamma pattha, not as bad as killing for some other reasons, but akusala kamma none-the-less, and the result would be unwholesome.
So, you would be better off letting another living creature destroy your life, and in the process making it impossible for you not to practice the Dhamma in the process of your life becoming a well of pain. As I said, your position makes no sense.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mr Man
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by Mr Man »

tiltbillings wrote: As I said, your position makes no sense.
Is this another Seng-Ts'an moment?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: As I said, your position makes no sense.
Is this another Seng-Ts'an moment?
You have to ask?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ben
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by Ben »

Sometimes, in life, we are forced to make some very difficult decisions. And it is apparent that some here already have.
In those situations where one is compelled to end another creature's or another person's life its quite often a heart-wrenching decision and is often the least-worst option available.
No doubt, I have attracted some heavy kamma as a result of some of the things that I have done. But I am confident that whatever negative kamma I have inherited is somewhat attenuated by my reluctance to perform the action, my compassion for the beings in question, and by acknowledging responsibility for the kamma.
kind regards,

Ben
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Kamran
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by Kamran »

Ben wrote:Sometimes, in life, we are forced to make some very difficult decisions. And it is apparent that some here already have.
In those situations where one is compelled to end another creature's or another person's life its quite often a heart-wrenching decision and is often the least-worst option available.
No doubt, I have attracted some heavy kamma as a result of some of the things that I have done. But I am confident that whatever negative kamma I have inherited is somewhat attenuated by my reluctance to perform the action, my compassion for the beings in question, and by acknowledging responsibility for the kamma.
kind regards,

Ben
:goodpost:
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