My monk teacher refused almsfood and handles money?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Dr. Dukkha
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:02 am

My monk teacher refused almsfood and handles money?

Post by Dr. Dukkha »

I'm an American and I go to a Theravadin monastery in America. I've been seeing a Sri Lankan Theravadin monk to learn more about Buddhism and I've been considering monkhood. I've been seeing him for about a month, and I offer a lot of food to them.
So I volunteer at a soup kitchen and I like to bring leftover food to the monks after I finish my duties.
I called my teacher and told him that I was bringing him some bananas from the soup kitchen and he said it was great and its okay that I should bring them.
So I did when I went to his monastery today (he is the abbot of the monastery). And I admit that the bananas were of darker complexion, but they certainly weren't brown or inedible. I actually had one and it was absolutely fine.
So I brought it up to him, and showed him the tub of bananas I had for him. There were about fifteen of them. And when he saw the bananas, he declined them. I actually found this rather insulting that I came all this way to offer him food that he said he would accept and declined them when he saw them.
He didn't specifically tell me why he declined them, though. And I know he knew they were edible because he said it was okay that I would give them to the homeless people around the area. They were very edible, just a little browned.
So I'm just confused if there is some type of Theravadin tradition I'm missing out on or is my teacher just breaking some rules. Because that's not the only rule they are giving the appearance of breaking.
They also handle money that is given to them from donation and that is against the tenth precept.
I asked them about that and they told me that they had some type of superior type of ordination that gave them the right to handle money and buy things.
I just hope it's a huge misunderstanding and not some type of misbehavior or carelessness on their part.
"There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth; not going all the way, and not starting."
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4646
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: My monk teacher refused almsfood and handles money?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

How to Tell the Difference Between a Monk and a Monkey

Offer some money and some bananas
  1. If he accepts the bananas and rejects the money, he's a monkey, not a monk
  2. If he accepts the money and rejects the bananas, he's not a scrupulous monk.
  3. If he accepts the bananas, and explains that money is not allowable for monks, he is a monk, not a monkey
  4. If he rejects the bananas and the money, and explains that money is not allowable for monks, and that bananas are only allowable at the right time, he's a monk, not a monkey.
There is no "superior type of ordination" that allows a monk to accept money. There's an inferior ordination as an Anāgārika, which allows a lay person living in the monastery to accept and make use of money.

I also sometimes refuse bananas when they are offered, because they don't keep, and are rarely ready to eat on the day that they are offered. They are also high in carbohydrate, which I don't need any more off. Bananas are at their best when the skin has started to go black or brown in places — it means that they are ripe.

Acceptance of money is now almost universal, so don't be too disappointed about that. There are plenty of monks who accept it, but who still provide a useful service by teaching Dhamma to the community. However, saying that there is a superior ordination that allows monks to accept money is just monkey-business. It would be better to admit one's fault, making some excuse about it being difficult to manage one's affairs without using money, etc., as most monks do.

Outside of Asia, it is often difficult to get sufficient support to run a temple. Even Chithurst is now struggling to meet the monthly expenses. However, if things are set up properly, a lay board of trustees should take care of that, without the monks having to get involved in fund-raising or accepting monetary donations.
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
dagon
Posts: 526
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:45 am

Re: My monk teacher refused almsfood and handles money?

Post by dagon »

Thank you Bhante; as always to the point - even if some times we have too much dust in our eyes to see it.

Ajahn Brahm in the talk linked below discusses fault finding - along with many other things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHXkwj_0MIU

You could start listening at 24:53 min but the whole talk is well worth listening to.

metta
paul
Dr. Dukkha
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:02 am

Re: My monk teacher refused almsfood and handles money?

Post by Dr. Dukkha »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:How to Tell the Difference Between a Monk and a Monkey

Offer some money and some bananas
  1. If he accepts the bananas and rejects the money, he's a monkey, not a monk
  2. If he accepts the money and rejects the bananas, he's not a scrupulous monk.
  3. If he accepts the bananas, and explains that money is not allowable for monks, he is a monk, not a monkey
  4. If he rejects the bananas and the money, and explains that money is not allowable for monks, and that bananas are only allowable at the right time, he's a monk, not a monkey.
There is no "superior type of ordination" that allows a monk to accept money. There's an inferior ordination as an Anāgārika, which allows a lay person living in the monastery to accept and make use of money.

I also sometimes refuse bananas when they are offered, because they don't keep, and are rarely ready to eat on the day that they are offered. They are also high in carbohydrate, which I don't need any more off. Bananas are at their best when the skin has started to go black or brown in places — it means that they are ripe.

Acceptance of money is now almost universal, so don't be too disappointed about that. There are plenty of monks who accept it, but who still provide a useful service by teaching Dhamma to the community. However, saying that there is a superior ordination that allows monks to accept money is just monkey-business. It would be better to admit one's fault, making some excuse about it being difficult to manage one's affairs without using money, etc., as most monks do.

Outside of Asia, it is often difficult to get sufficient support to run a temple. Even Chithurst is now struggling to meet the monthly expenses. However, if things are set up properly, a lay board of trustees should take care of that, without the monks having to get involved in fund-raising or accepting monetary donations.
I should consider framing this reply. I've seen your other replies and I love the personality, lol. I appreciate this. It's good to know my monks aren't being bad role models. And it's possible that the "superior ordination" was some type of explanation; worse case scenario being that it was some type of shortcut explanation. Thank you for your help.
"There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth; not going all the way, and not starting."
Dr. Dukkha
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:02 am

Re: My monk teacher refused almsfood and handles money?

Post by Dr. Dukkha »

Some type of "misunderstanding," not "explanation."
Last edited by retrofuturist on Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Repeat quote removed for clarity
"There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth; not going all the way, and not starting."
Dr. Dukkha
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:02 am

Re: My monk teacher refused almsfood and handles money?

Post by Dr. Dukkha »

dagon wrote:Thank you Bhante; as always to the point - even if some times we have too much dust in our eyes to see it.

Ajahn Brahm in the talk linked below discusses fault finding - along with many other things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHXkwj_0MIU

You could start listening at 24:53 min but the whole talk is well worth listening to.

metta
paul
Beautiful.
"There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth; not going all the way, and not starting."
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17190
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: My monk teacher refused almsfood and handles money?

Post by DNS »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: If he accepts the bananas and rejects the money, he's a monkey, not a monk
:lol:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: If he rejects the bananas and the money, and explains that money is not allowable for monks, and that bananas are only allowable at the right time, he's a monk, not a monkey.[/list]
There is no "superior type of ordination" that allows a monk to accept money. There's an inferior ordination as an Anāgārika, which allows a lay person living in the monastery to accept and make use of money.
:anjali: :meditate:
dagon
Posts: 526
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:45 am

Re: My monk teacher refused almsfood and handles money?

Post by dagon »

Dr. Dukkha wrote:Some type of "misunderstanding," not "explanation."
In the end we are responsible for our own liberation. The Buddha gave us a raft to cross a river with but said that in the end we would need to let go of that as well. Ask yourself the question; was your post about the monk or about your response to the situation? were you disappointed?

Ajahn Brahm talks about disappointment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmlQ9qGomG0

metta
paul
User avatar
Sekha
Posts: 789
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:32 am
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: My monk teacher refused almsfood and handles money?

Post by Sekha »

Unfortunately, it sounds like those monks are not worthy of honors and respect. If I were you, I would just stop going there and look for a better place. Otherwise, make just make mine at home.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
pegembara
Posts: 3465
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: My monk teacher refused almsfood and handles money?

Post by pegembara »

[The teachings that promote] the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to passion, not to dispassion; to being fettered, not to being unfettered; to accumulating, not to shedding; to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty; to discontent, not to contentment; to entanglement, not to seclusion; to laziness, not to aroused persistence; to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome': You may categorically hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.'

[As for the teachings that promote] the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may categorically hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'

— AN 8.53
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
User avatar
lyndon taylor
Posts: 1835
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Location: Redlands, US occupied Northern Mexico
Contact:

Re: My monk teacher refused almsfood and handles money?

Post by lyndon taylor »

If someone offered me a bunch of browning bananas, I'm sure I would decline, one of the things I was taught about giving food to monks is to pick the freshest healthiest, even fanciest food, as one would for an honoured guest, its seems an honoured guest at your house might have similar reservations about the banana offering in question.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4646
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: My monk teacher refused almsfood and handles money?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

How to Tell if a Banana is Ripe.

If they're completely yellow or green, don't offer them to monks. We have to eat food on the day it is offered, and cannot store it up. It can be offered again on another day, but that depends on someone being available to offer it. A banana with black spots will start turning brown within two or three days. After four or five days it will be too ripe to use.

In the Buddha's time, many monks became sick due to an excess of luxurious foods. You should know that you cannot eat Christmas dinners every day of the week without getting quite ill. One should offer food that is the best for health, with only a small portion of luxurious foods.

The seven kind of luxurious foods, which a monk may not request unless sick or invited to ask for whatever he wants, are: ghee, butter, oil, honey, molasses, fish, meat, milk, and curds. Ordinary working people in Asia at that time could not afford to use these luxuries on a daily basis as we can now in the West. The monks should be content with meals of mostly grains, pulses, and vegetables, with a little of the luxurious foods if donors can afford to offer them.
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
User avatar
appicchato
Posts: 1602
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Bridge on the River Kwae

Re: My monk teacher refused almsfood and handles money?

Post by appicchato »

If someone offered me a bunch of browning bananas, I'm sure I would decline...
Barely, just barely, can I believe what I read here...in a nutshell, it's not what's offered that means anything, it's the spirit of the offering that means everything...in addition, not everyone with the Dhamma in their hearts has the privilege of being able to offer the 'fanciest'...

A skillful monk will accept anything (in accordance with the Vinaya) sincerely offered...how it is consumed, disposed of, or dispensed with, is completely irrelevant both to the offerer, and the offeree (sic)...
User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8503
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: My monk teacher refused almsfood and handles money?

Post by cooran »

Thank you, Bhante!

With metta and respect,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
lyndon taylor
Posts: 1835
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Location: Redlands, US occupied Northern Mexico
Contact:

Re: My monk teacher refused almsfood and handles money?

Post by lyndon taylor »

Well I am not a monk and I will only eat yellow bananas without spots, perhaps the monk in the OP had similar taste, at the temple I studied the mostly women brought very nice food, I guess in a poorer environment monks should be happy to get anything to eat, but still, I don't think you take your leftovers you're about to throw away to the monks, its a matter of respect, as I said before treat the monks as you would an honoured guest at your house. if you have two apples, one really good and one just so so you give the good one to the monk not vice versa, or am I missing something here???
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
Post Reply