Faith-based against evidence-based

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Matteo1972
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by Matteo1972 »

Doshin wrote:I would claim, that you delude yourself by just looking at the messenger, and forget to look at the message; actually the essence of the message.

John Lennon is who is often credited for that insightful quote, its from one of his songs released in 1980. However the quote can be found in 1957 in Reader’s Digest magazine, in March 1958 the popular syndicated columnist Earl Wilson published a version of the saying in a subsection titled “Earl’s Pearls”. (dates found on quoteinvestigator.com ).

Does that make the insight, in the quote, more or less true ?

What I do, is to take the quote (and just the quote) into my mind, and leave it there to simmer, and wait for insights to arise.

_/\_
chownah wrote:Are you familiar with "ad hominum" argument? It means discounting something because of who said it. It is a mistake to do this. If the devil says words of wisdom then the words are still wisdom. Judge words by what they mean and not by who says them. I am neither promoting nor denigrating the quote above....my comment here is not about the quote, it is about the mistaken sort of logic that you are using to respond to it.
chownah
Edit.......I guess I'm guilty of piling on.....I didn't see the previous post.......oh we'll, it can't hurt to emphasize this point.
chownah
Well..

There are about lots of "wise quotes" you can find in the internet, here you can find 10000+ of them

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/life

Is there any particular reason I should consider that John Lennon quote more important than others?
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Doshin
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by Doshin »

Matteo1972 wrote:
Doshin wrote:I would claim, that you delude yourself by just looking at the messenger, and forget to look at the message; actually the essence of the message....
chownah wrote:Are you familiar with "ad hominum" argument? It means discounting something because of who said it. It is a mistake to do this. ...
Well..

There are about lots of "wise quotes" you can find in the internet, here you can find 10000+ of them

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/life

Is there any particular reason I should consider that John Lennon quote more important than others?
You should focus on quotes, that give you insight or food for thought; they would be the most important to you.

I chose those two quotes, as I thought the insight one could have with them, was relevant to this thread/topic.

_/\_
Knowing about dhamma, does not imply knowing dhamma
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equilibrium
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by equilibrium »

Matteo1972 wrote:If I met with a person claiming that he is arhant, I would not necessarily think he is delusional or that he needs practices, I would rather listen very carefully to what he says.
But the problem here is you do not "know" if he/she is an arhart, do you?.....so why would you believe in their words? in fact, why would you believe in anyone's words.....even your own words in that extent!
Matteo1972 wrote:After all, the Buddha claimed to be enlightened,...
And you believe in this too?.....do you have prove or any evidence?
If it is based on your believe, then why don't you just follow the teaching?
Matteo1972 wrote:I do not believe in any "truth", being it Buddhist or not.
So why are you here?.....what are you searching for? what is more important is based on your statement, is it a "fact" that there is no truth or is it just another one of your own believe?.....a believe isn't a fact is it?
Matteo1972
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by Matteo1972 »

Doshin wrote:
You should focus on quotes, that give you insight or food for thought; they would be the most important to you.

I chose those two quotes, as I thought the insight one could have with them, was relevant to this thread/topic.

_/\_
On a way.. all quotes give you some insightful perspective, none of them would lead to Enlightenment I think

Still, thank you for the help
Matteo1972
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by Matteo1972 »

Doshin wrote:
You should focus on quotes, that give you insight or food for thought; they would be the most important to you.

I chose those two quotes, as I thought the insight one could have with them, was relevant to this thread/topic.

_/\_
On a way.. all quotes give you some insightful perspective, none of them would lead to Enlightenment I think

Still, thank you for the help
Matteo1972
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by Matteo1972 »

equilibrium wrote: But the problem here is you do not "know" if he/she is an arhart, do you?.....so why would you believe in their words? in fact, why would you believe in anyone's words.....even your own words in that extent!
Why would this person deceive me?
In any case, I would not believe him/her at face value, but still I would have a place to start investigating.
So far, we are all talking among non-Enlightened people, so your and my word has the same weight
equilibrium wrote: And you believe in this too?.....do you have prove or any evidence?
If it is based on your believe, then why don't you just follow the teaching?
No, I do not.
But I would listen very carefully.
equilibrium wrote: So why are you here?.....what are you searching for? what is more important is based on your statement, is it a "fact" that there is no truth or is it just another one of your own believe?.....a believe isn't a fact is it?
I am here to listen what other people have to say.
I am serching for some hint of a teaching that could end the suffering
dagon
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by dagon »

Matteo1972 wrote:
equilibrium wrote: But the problem here is you do not "know" if he/she is an arhart, do you?.....so why would you believe in their words? in fact, why would you believe in anyone's words.....even your own words in that extent!
Why would this person deceive me?
In any case, I would not believe him/her at face value, but still I would have a place to start investigating.
So far, we are all talking among non-Enlightened people, so your and my word has the same weight
equilibrium wrote: And you believe in this too?.....do you have prove or any evidence?
If it is based on your believe, then why don't you just follow the teaching?
No, I do not.
But I would listen very carefully.
equilibrium wrote: So why are you here?.....what are you searching for? what is more important is based on your statement, is it a "fact" that there is no truth or is it just another one of your own believe?.....a believe isn't a fact is it?
I am here to listen what other people have to say.
I am serching for some hint of a teaching that could end the suffering
That is the problem – you are looking for someone else to end your suffering. Where did the Buddha teach that?
Metta
paul
Matteo1972
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by Matteo1972 »

dagon wrote:That is the problem – you are looking for someone else to end your suffering. Where did the Buddha teach that?
Metta
paul
Not exactly.
I would need someone reliable to tell me how I need to do to end my suffering
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equilibrium
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by equilibrium »

Matteo1972 wrote: Why would this person deceive me?
In any case, I would not believe him/her at face value, but still I would have a place to start investigating.
So far, we are all talking among non-Enlightened people, so your and my word has the same weight
Point is not about deceive, it is about whether one understand or not.
As you have already pointed out, you will not believe at face value, then, why would one wish to seek for one?

So how would you know if there are no enlightened people here in these forums?.....is this another assumption? and is it a fact?.....there is somewhere in the teaching and it noted that we are all located on a mountain range, in that range, we are all positioned in terms of our own delusion. Those at the bottom have the most delusion, middle ones are in-between and those at the higher levels have few. Yet those at the lower levels cannot see those higher, only those at a higher level can see those below. The Buddha is positioned at the very top.....so based on your statement, you must be an enlightened being then?
Matteo1972 wrote: No, I do not.
But I would listen very carefully.
Why listen to anyone else than the teaching itself?.....is it not better to learn from the person who is positioned at the top of a mountain range who sees ALL?
Matteo1972 wrote: I am here to listen what other people have to say.
I am serching for some hint of a teaching that could end the suffering
You must be aware that no matter how many people you hear from, you are not going to get any closer to the truth are you? if you are searching for it, you need to start looking at the right place by "doing" rather than asking for it.....you do "know" the truth cannot be told, it is "realised" in your mind!!??.....IF you are ready for it!
dagon
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by dagon »

Matteo1972 wrote:
dagon wrote:That is the problem – you are looking for someone else to end your suffering. Where did the Buddha teach that?
Metta
paul
Not exactly.
I would need someone reliable to tell me how I need to do to end my suffering
You already have that – The Buddha and the Dhamma

As you already know – reflect on the aspects of the 4 noble truths that you can perceive from mundane experience.
Follow the precepts and see if your suffering is reduced as you more fully comply with them. They may be called precepts and training rules, but I have found them to be an excellent set of testing rules. They have reduced my suffering in this life and continue to reduce it further as I develop better moral behaviors and ethic. Thus based on the testing of the teachings I have gained faith (someone else said confidence – I like)

Remember that The Buddha provided us with more tools for our development that just meditation. Development of mindfulness and making it the focus of our lives is where the path should be leading us (in my opinion)
Look at psychology and it adoption of (a form) of what The Buddha taught – look at it adoption in all sorts of places including “Christian" countries.

If you adopt something and can test it with positive results then it is clearly worth the investment of more time and effort.

Metta
paul
chownah
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by chownah »

Matteo1972 wrote:
Is there any particular reason I should consider that John Lennon quote more important than others?
I don't know how you should consider the quote......except that your consideration should be based on the quote and not on the author.

So, you tell me; what does the quote mean, "life is what is happening to you, while making plans for the future." I would like you to explain what this means to you.
chownah
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kc2dpt
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by kc2dpt »

robertk wrote:By the way, according to Theravada no bhikkhu who attained sotapanna as a bhikkhu would go back to the low life of a layman.
I believe you are mistaken on this point. If I recall correctly, it is said an arahant could not live as a layman. I do not recall if an anagami could. A sakadagami or sottapanna definately could. I will try to find a reference later today.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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robertk
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by robertk »

kc2dpt wrote: I believe you are mistaken on this point. If I recall correctly, it is said an arahant could not live as a layman. I do not recall if an anagami could. A sakadagami or sottapanna definately could. I will try to find a reference later today.
Rereading what I wrote I cannot see anywhere where I suggest a sotappana cannot be a laymen> In fact there are million of cases given in the texts of laymen as sotapanna, sakadagami and anagami. So I am not sure your references will be useful.
Matteo1972
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by Matteo1972 »

dagon wrote: You already have that – The Buddha and the Dhamma
Well.. unless you are veeery old, I do not think you met the Buddha personally. :)
Infact, I do not think anybody can claim evidence that he actually lived.

As for the Dhamma, unless it can be assumed that it can actually bring people to Enlightenment, what would be the use?
dagon wrote:As you already know – reflect on the aspects of the 4 noble truths that you can perceive from mundane experience.
Follow the precepts and see if your suffering is reduced as you more fully comply with them. They may be called precepts and training rules, but I have found them to be an excellent set of testing rules. They have reduced my suffering in this life and continue to reduce it further as I develop better moral behaviors and ethic. Thus based on the testing of the teachings I have gained faith (someone else said confidence – I like)
Yes, suffering can be thought to be decreasing if you think it does.
I do not want to make any proselitism here, but Catholic priests claim the same: if you have in God you can bear your burden better.
I think the same would be true for faith in Allah, or any other God probably
dagon wrote:Remember that The Buddha provided us with more tools for our development that just meditation. Development of mindfulness and making it the focus of our lives is where the path should be leading us (in my opinion)
Look at psychology and it adoption of (a form) of what The Buddha taught – look at it adoption in all sorts of places including “Christian" countries.

If you adopt something and can test it with positive results then it is clearly worth the investment of more time and effort.

Metta
paul
I have seen happy Christians
I have seen happy Muslims
I have seen happy atheists.
Of course there are happy Buddhists, but why do you assume their teaching is better?
Matteo1972
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Post by Matteo1972 »

chownah wrote:
Matteo1972 wrote:
Is there any particular reason I should consider that John Lennon quote more important than others?
I don't know how you should consider the quote......except that your consideration should be based on the quote and not on the author.

So, you tell me; what does the quote mean, "life is what is happening to you, while making plans for the future." I would like you to explain what this means to you.
chownah
Please do.

I fail to see the deep meaning of it.

I have a Zen quote, however.

If you imagine your body moving without "you", how would it behave?
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