The experience of celibacy for 12 years

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Mr Man
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Re: The experience of celibacy for 12 years

Post by Mr Man »

santa100 wrote:
Mr. Man wrote: Hi santa100, So you are saying that it is Ven. Dhammanando's belief "that by performing (or not performing) a particular act one will be reborn in heaven". That particular act being consciously abstaining from sexual intercourse. And this is also your belief?
Given the Buddha's teaching, yes, it is my provisional faith in His teaching that it is true. By the way, you said you don't believe that is the case. Could you provide backup literature and sutta references for your position?
You would like backup literature and sutta references for what happens after death? My position (that celibacy is not intrinsically beneficial) is an opinion based on my own understanding and experience.
santa100
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Re: The experience of celibacy for 12 years

Post by santa100 »

Mr Man wrote:You would like backup literature and sutta references for what happens after death? My position (that celibacy is not intrinsically beneficial) is an opinion based on my own understanding and experience.
Yes, I meant any sutta references taught by the Buddha which actually described what's here and now and into the future lives. Anyway, thanks for clarifying that it comes from your own personal opinion..
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Mr Man
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Re: The experience of celibacy for 12 years

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Whatever brahmans & contemplatives
describe purity
in terms of views & learning,
describe purity
in terms of precepts & practices,
describe purity
in terms of manifold ways:
none of them, living there in that way,
I tell you, have crossed over birth & aging.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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mikenz66
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Re: The experience of celibacy for 12 years

Post by mikenz66 »

Which continues:
[The Buddha:]
I don't say that all brahmans & contemplatives
are shrouded in birth & aging.
Those here who've abandoned
what's seen, heard, & sensed,
precepts & practices
— all —
who've abandoned their manifold ways
— again, all —
who, comprehending craving,
are effluent-free:
they are the ones, I tell you,
who've crossed over the flood.
:anjali:
Mike
santa100
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Re: The experience of celibacy for 12 years

Post by santa100 »

:anjali: Mike. And also Ven. Thanissaro's footnote which gives further explanation from "Mind Like Fire Unbound" ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... e/2-3.html ):
Just as if a great mass of fire, of ten... twenty... thirty or forty cartloads of timber were burning, and into it a man would periodically throw dried grass, dried cow dung, & dried timber, so that the great mass of fire — thus nourished, thus sustained — would burn for a long, long time; even so, monks, in one who keeps focusing on the allure of those phenomena that offer sustenance [lit: "flammable phenomena"], craving develops; with craving as condition, sustenance; with sustenance as condition, becoming; with becoming as condition, birth; with birth as condition, aging, illness & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all come into play. Thus is the origin of this entire mass of suffering & stress. ~~ SN 12.52 ~~
pegembara
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Re: The experience of celibacy for 12 years

Post by pegembara »

And this
"Monks, the All is aflame. What All is aflame? The eye is aflame. Forms are aflame. Consciousness at the eye is aflame. Contact at the eye is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I tell you, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs.

"The ear is aflame. Sounds are aflame...

"The nose is aflame. Aromas are aflame...

"The tongue is aflame. Flavors are aflame...

"The body is aflame. Tactile sensations are aflame...

"The intellect is aflame. Ideas are aflame. Consciousness at the intellect is aflame. Contact at the intellect is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I say, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
beeblebrox
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Re: The experience of celibacy for 12 years

Post by beeblebrox »

Dhammanando wrote:Then there is also the Nanda Sutta in the Udāna, where the venerable Nanda is persuaded by the Buddha to continue with the brahmacariyā in the present life (despite his wish to disrobe and take up with his former fiancée), for by doing so he will gain heavenly rebirth and five hundred pink-footed apsaras.
Hi Venerable,

Here's a thought... why would anyone, especially those who are serious about their practices, want to be reborn in a heavenly realm with "500 pink footed apsaras"? It seems a bit silly to me, even when we consider the cultural trappings.
Dhammanando wrote:
SarathW wrote:I do not consider simple observation of celibacy constitute a virtue.
I'm not sure what you mean by simple observance of celibacy. In the suttas it's stated that practising the brahmacariyā is a condition for rebirth in the sensual heavens, even where the person who practises it does so very miserably. This seems to imply that there is something intrinsically good in deliberately undertaken abstention from sex.
Likewise, why would it be seen as good to be reborn in the sensual heavens? As opposed to being reborn in the human realm, where I think it's more conducive for dhamma practice?

:anjali:
daverupa
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Re: The experience of celibacy for 12 years

Post by daverupa »

I think the cultural trappings gave an emphasis to the benefits of the practice, whereas earlier exegetical treatments emphasized the utter danger of sensual pleasures generally, sex being simply one among them.

The simile of bait-hook-escape describes benefits in a way that doesn't require reference to heavenly realms, while at the same time being in agreement with the general attitude of dispassion and the rejection of enmeshment with sensuality. The cultural motivation of heaven may no longer be appropriate for some, but the bait-hook-escape approach remains valid.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Mr Man
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Re: The experience of celibacy for 12 years

Post by Mr Man »

Daverupa, Do you think that by performing (or not performing) a particular act one will be reborn in heaven or would you consider that to be superstition?
Do you think that celibacy is intrinsically beneficial?
daverupa
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Re: The experience of celibacy for 12 years

Post by daverupa »

Mr Man wrote:Daverupa, Do you think that by performing (or not performing) a particular act one will be reborn in heaven or would you consider that to be superstition?
I would say that acts have consequences, that observable individual death doesn't prima facie offer evidence for or against the inferential possibility of post-death consequence(s), and that the paired descriptions of the simile of the salt crystal and the vexation of trying to work out kamma precisely make strict, a-contextual equivalencies such as 'X act --> Y heaven' impossible.

But there are themes of wholesome and unwholesome which can be ascribed to certain acts since certain intentions will form necessary foundation(s) for those acts. So for example, when you ask
Do you think that celibacy is intrinsically beneficial?
I'm going to say that sensual pleasures are intrinsically bothersome and obstructive in terms of Buddhist goals because the intention to engage with them is necessarily based on greed for them or aversion to their lack, else ignorance that they are a waste of time and distracting and obsessing, leading a mind which inclines in their direction to further appropriations and enmirement.

So, 'celibate' (and 'chaste' and the lot) are simply the resultant descriptions of an individual who practices to avoid these bothersome and obstructive processes. This indeed forms part of a network of wholesome, beneficial effort.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Mr Man
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Re: The experience of celibacy for 12 years

Post by Mr Man »

Thanks for the reply Daverupa, Now I am certainly not advocating not being celibate or trying to justify sexual activity but I would think that there is a possibility that the practice could be grasped wrongly or it's significance (for the lay follower) could be overstated. Evan if we reflect on the life of the bodhisatta we can see how practices intended to subdue sensual pleasures can be grasped wrongly.

On a side note I read today that 1% of the population are asexual. For the remaining 99% of us I'm sure there are vast ranges in sexual desire and activity and also a fair number of different emotions presented and acted upon in relation to sexual activity.
SarathW
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Re: The experience of celibacy for 12 years

Post by SarathW »

Mr Man wrote:Hi Ven. Dhammanando

The perspective I was thinking of was as a practice for monastics as part of a wider code of practice and way of training - not that lay people should be obliged to partake in sexual activity though.

I personally think the benefits of celibacy may be overstated and in some instances may be inappropriate (for the non monastic). Sensual pleasures are wide and varied. Some appear gross and some more subtle. Giving up the activity of sex is not synonymous with giving up sensual pleasures, It is just giving up one particular activity.

I do not regard the whole doctrine of kamma and rebirth as a superstition. I regard them as things to be investigated, considered and known. What I regard as superstition is that by performing (or not performing) a particular act one will be reborn in heaven. I'm not sure if this is your belief or not.

I do not agree that celibacy is intrinsically beneficial.

:anjali:
Hi Mr Man
I see where you coming from.
What I think is the intensity of action should be considered.
I am not sure whether the intensity of desire( Eat) for an apple or chocolate is the same as intensity of desire for having sexual intercourse.
Some people may say the vice versa.
In that case if a person abstinence from eating chocolate may lead to rebirth in heavenly places.
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
beeblebrox
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Re: The experience of celibacy for 12 years

Post by beeblebrox »

daverupa wrote:I think the cultural trappings gave an emphasis to the benefits of the practice, whereas earlier exegetical treatments emphasized the utter danger of sensual pleasures generally, sex being simply one among them.

The simile of bait-hook-escape describes benefits in a way that doesn't require reference to heavenly realms, while at the same time being in agreement with the general attitude of dispassion and the rejection of enmeshment with sensuality. The cultural motivation of heaven may no longer be appropriate for some, but the bait-hook-escape approach remains valid.
Hi Dave,

I've been pondering over this "bait-hook-escape" approach... is that similar to what was described in the Lotus Sutra, where the Buddha (or so claimed) said that it wouldn't be proper to charge him with falsehood, since there is always this concern for him to lead us to liberation?

A couple metaphors were used to illustrate this: a wealthy merchant tells his children that he has various go-karts for them, to draw them out of the burning house; and a doctor sends his children the news that he's dead, so that they would be frightened into taking the medicine.

Another point: a recent news in the lounge (about sex abuse), and someone's response to it by sharing that the temples would hold beauty contests every year reminded me of what was shared in here... that if we practice celibacy we will go to sensual heavens, such as the one with 500 footed apsaras.

It seems like (ironic or not) these beauty contests are akin to being in the apsara heaven. When one goes celibate, it's inevitable (and I know this from experience) that the person will find himself in a situation like that sooner or later, and not only that, his perception would be altered in some ways (i.e., certain qualities will stand out in the women, such as their beauty, the desirableness, etc., due to the unresolved sexual energy).

That is just how it is when one goes celibate... and I think the Buddha described it. I doubt that he was offering it as a reward, but as a caution... albeit it's couched.

Do you think the Buddha bait anyone like that? I think the interpretation is inaccurate.

:anjali:
Last edited by beeblebrox on Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
daverupa
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Re: The experience of celibacy for 12 years

Post by daverupa »

beeblebrox wrote:Do you think the Buddha bait anyone like that?
Baiting them with tales of pink-footed nymphs?

I'm not sure I see it as baiting; I could see that this young man, already believing in such things as post-death divine nymphs, being amazed that he hadn't ever considered that it would be better to avoid these here-and-now pleasures if greater pleasures are a result of that restraint.

This structural approach then holds valid for every pleasure that can be considered, up to nibbana, which would be the Buddha's pedagogical goal in this case. The content of the lines "nymphs > earth women" sets up a velocity toward "nibbana > sensuality" or even "form/formless > sensuality". I don't see a problem other than with taking that as a perfectly verbatim dialogue, which I don't think is fair for very much of the Nikayas.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
beeblebrox
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Re: The experience of celibacy for 12 years

Post by beeblebrox »

Hi Dave,

When a person is in sensual heaven, do you think it's easier or more difficult to stay with one's practice? If it's more difficult, then why is it called a heaven? If the Buddha called it heaven, then is that a lie?

:anjali:
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