Commitment to a narrative of liberation - Lotus Sutra, etc

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Commitment to a narrative of liberation - Lotus Sutra, etc

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:14 am

Split from here: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=18636&start=20#p262065

rohana wrote: You don't need to tie yourself into knots trying to resolve what the Saddharma Puṇḍarīka Sūtra says about skillful means with the ethical guidelines put forth in the Pāli Suttas if you understand the historical background.
Tying myself in knots over the Lotus Sutra? Never, definitely based upon the historical context. But do not forget, if you ever say anything bad about the Lotus Sutra, you'll get bad breath, have a bad rebirth and your head will explode.

    The Lotus Sutra Chapter 3: If a person fails to have faith
    but instead slanders this sutra,
    ...
    The things he says
    people will not believe,
    the breath from his mouth will be constantly foul
    ...
    If there are monks who,
    for the sake of comprehensive wisdom,
    seek the Law in every direction,
    pressing palms together, gratefully accepting,
    desiring only to accept and embrace
    the sutra of the Great Vehicle
    and not accepting a single verse
    of the other sutras
    ,
    to persons such as this
    it is permissible to preach it [the Lotus Sutra].
    If a person, earnest in mind,
    seeks this sutra
    as though he were seeking the Buddha's relics,
    and having gained and gratefully accepted it,
    that person shows no intention
    of seeking other sutras
    and has never once given thought
    to the writings of the non-Buddhist doctrines,
    to a person such as this
    it is permissible to preach it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby Aloka » Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:55 am

tiltbillings wrote: But do not forget, if you ever say anything bad about the Lotus Sutra, you'll get bad breath, have a bad rebirth and your head will explode.


Reminds me of the kind of unquestioning devotion required for Vajrayana Guru Yoga:

"How can a Buddha (the guru) have faults? Whatever he does let him do it! Even if you see your guru having sexual relations, tellling lies and so on, calmly meditate as follows : " These are my Guru's unsurpassed skillful methods of training disciples. Through these methods he has brought many sentient beings to spiritual maturity and liberation. This is a hundred, a thousand times more wonderful than preserving a pure moral code! This is not deception or hypocrisy but the highest mode of conduct!"



Taken from the chapter " The Guru Yoga Which Rapidly Confers Blessings" in "The Torch of Certainty" by Jamgon Kontrul, translated by Judith Hanson and with introduction by Chogyam Trungpa.


Not sure if that qualifies as "a narrative to liberation" ! :)


.
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby plwk » Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:21 am

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html
"O Rahu, swallow not the dispeller of darkness, the shining one, the radiant and effulgent traveler through the sky. Rahu, release Suriya, my son." Thereupon Rahu, Lord of Asuras, released Suriya, and immediately came to the presence of Vepacitta, Lord of Asuras, and stood beside him trembling with fear and with hair standing on end.

Then Vepacitta addressed Rahu in this stanza:
"Rahu, why did you suddenly release Suriya? Why have you come trembling, and why are you standing here terrified?"
"I have been spoken to by the Buddha in a stanza (requesting me to release Suriya).
If I had not released Suriya my head would have split into seven pieces. While yet I live, I should have had no happiness. (Therefore I released Suriya)."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html
"O Rahu, Candima has gone for refuge to the Tathagata, the Consummate One. Release Candima.
The Buddhas radiate compassion on the world (of beings)."
Thereupon Rahu, Lord of Asuras, released Candima, the deity, and immediately came to the presence of Vepacitta, Lord of Asuras, and stood beside him trembling with fear and with hair standing on end.

Then Vepacitta addressed Rahu in this stanza.
"Rahu. Why did you suddenly release Candima? Why have you come trembling, and why are you standing here terrified?"
"I have been spoken to by the Buddha in a stanza (requesting me to release Candima).
If I had not released Candima my head would have split into seven pieces.
While yet I live, I should have had no happiness. (Therefore I released Candima)."
http://buddhasutra.com/files/ambattha_sutta.htm
Then the Lord said to Ambattha,
"Ambattha, I have a fundamental question for you, which you will not like to answer. If you don’t answer, or if you evade the issue, if you keep silent or go away, your head will split into seven pieces. What do you think, Ambattha? Have you heard from old and venerable Brahmins, teachers of teachers, where the Kanhayans came from, or who was their ancestor?"

At this, Ambattha remained silent, and the Lord said,
"Answer me now, Ambattha, this is not the time for silence.
Whoever, Ambattha, does not answer a fundamental question put to him by a Tathágata by the third asking has his head split into seven pieces."

And at that moment Vajrapani the Yaksha, [This god is also called "Indra." He is ready to make good on the mytho mentioned above. The old gods are supporting the new religion. Vajrapani also appears as a Bodhisattva in later Mahayana Sutras.—BIONA Webmaster] holding up a huge iron club, flaming, ablaze and glowing, up in the sky just above Ambattha was thinking, "If this young man does not answer a proper question put to him by the Blessed Lord by the third time of asking, I’ll split his head into seven pieces!"

The Lord saw Vajrapani, and so did Ambattha. And at the sight, Ambattha was terrified and unnerved, his hairs stood on end, and he sought protection, shelter, and safety from the Lord. Crouching down close to the Lord, he said, "What did the Reverend Gotama say? May the Reverend Gotama repeat what he said!"

Just saying ya know...
Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

Anguttara-Nikaya: Ekanipata: Ekadhammapali: Pañhamavagga
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:33 pm

Hi plwk,
plwk wrote:...
Just saying ya know...

I'm struggling to see the relevance of these quotes to our discussion on narratives of liberation... :coffee:

:anjali:
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby plwk » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:52 am

Hi plwk,
plwk wrote:...
Just saying ya know...

I'm struggling to see the relevance of these quotes to our discussion on narratives of liberation... :coffee:

:anjali:
Mike
Me too Mike, especially with someone's 'maligning' of the Lotus Sutra in here but it's a side comparative note I guess...
Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

Anguttara-Nikaya: Ekanipata: Ekadhammapali: Pañhamavagga
VSM VMM WBB TBHT WTBT My Page
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation - Lotus Sutra, e

Postby Samma » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:57 am

Yea well who here takes this seriously...
The point being that narrative can matter a lot?

Thubten was caught in a classic Mahayana predicament. As a devoted Buddhist, he accepted the verdict of his tradition that all Mahayana scriptures were the word of the person we call the historical Buddha, Shakyamuni. But at the same time, it seemed quite clear to him that the Lotus Sutra conflicted with much of what he, as a Mahayana Buddhist monk, had been taught.
I suspect that Thubten’s shock at encountering the Lotus was not, historically speaking, all that unusual. On the contrary, I think it might well have resembled in many ways what most Indian Buddhists in the first or second century C.E. felt when they first heard this very revolutionary text. For the Lotus does not only critique what some Mahayanists describe as the Hinayana (“lower vehicle”); it also contradicts much of what, at the time of its composition, was seen as constituting the Mahayana (“greater vehicle”) tradition as well.
http://www.tricycle.com/special-section ... -awakening
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:56 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi plwk,
plwk wrote:...
Just saying ya know...

I'm struggling to see the relevance of these quotes to our discussion on narratives of liberation... :coffee:

:anjali:
Mike
The Joseph Goldstein quote, as good as it is, really is not basis for massaging all things Buddhist, of whatever school, into a nice big happy family.

You don't need to tie yourself into knots trying to resolve what the Saddharma Puṇḍarīka Sūtra says about skillful means with the ethical guidelines put forth in the Pāli Suttas if you understand the historical background.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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