The Kalama Sutta and Scepticism

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ceisiwr
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The Kalama Sutta and Scepticism

Post by Ceisiwr »

I would like to share some parallels I have seen between the Kalama Sutta and Philosophical scepticism, specifically Pyrrhonist scepticism.





Pyrrhonist scepticism was (supposedly) founded by Pyrrho, a contemporary of Alexander the Great and who apparently accompanied him in his conquest of India, and conversed with "naked philosophers" of India. This school of scepticism we know mostly from the works of Sextus Empiricus. In this school of thought, a person is said to find peace who "withholds assent to non-evident propositions". That is to say, a sceptic can say "X appears thus" but cannot say that X appears thus to everyone else, neither can he say what X is truly like. He can only say that "X appears thus" to me, in this moment. Therefore they withhold assent to propositions, achieve indifference (equanimity) and achieve Ataraxia, or peace of mind

N.B. Ataraxia (ἀταραξία "tranquility") is a Greek term used by Pyrrho and Epicurus for a lucid state of robust tranquillity, characterized by ongoing freedom from distress and worry.


CHAPTER X. – DO THE SCEPTICS ABOLISH APPEARANCES?

Those who say that "the Sceptics abolish appearances," or phenomena, seem to me to be unacquainted with the statements of our School. For, as we said above, we do not overthrow the affective sense-impressions which induce our assent involuntarily; and these impressions are "the appearances." And when we question whether the underlying object is such as it appears, we grant the fact that it appears, and our doubt does not concern the appearance itself but the account given of that appearance, -- and that is a different thing from questioning the appearance itself.


For example, honey appears to us to be sweet (and this we grant, for we perceive sweetness through the senses), but whether it is also sweet in its essence is for us a matter of doubt, since this is not an appearance but a judgement regarding the appearance. And even if we do actually argue against the appearances, we do not propound such arguments with the intention of abolishing appearances, but by way of pointing out the rashness of the Dogmatists; for if reason is such a trickster as to all but snatch away the appearances from under our very eyes, surely we should view it with suspicion in the case of things non-evident so as not to display rashness by following it.


http://evans-experientialism.freewebspa ... icus02.htm



Now in the Kalama Sutta the Buddha teaches


The criterion for acceptance
10. "Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them.



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el008.html


Now the Buddha is saying something similar, possibly even the same thing, as Sextus. He is saying that one cannot go on "tradition, authority, reasoning" etc and should withhold assent to these non evident propositions.

Only by experiencing that which is apparent to us, can we arrive at peace and leave the philosophical "thicket of views" behind.


When we do this we achieve Ataraxia, or a nibbana, in relation to views and opinions, I.e. in relation to that which is not apparent

However I would say there is a possible difference in the two approaches. Sextus appears to reach this via reasoning, the Buddha via detached observation.


Thoughts?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
santa100
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Re: The Kalama Sutta and Scepticism

Post by santa100 »

Ven. Bodhi's great essay on the Kalama Sutta to distinguish the Dhamma from other sceptics' philosophy can be found here.. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_09.html
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Kalama Sutta and Scepticism

Post by Ceisiwr »

santa100 wrote:Ven. Bodhi's great essay on the Kalama Sutta to distinguish the Dhamma from other sceptics' philosophy can be found here.. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_09.html

I'm not sure if Ven. Bodhi is aware of an obscure sceptic school like Pyrrhonism and is thinking more of general scepticism, or the scepticism of Sanjaya Belatthaputta.


However Ven. Bodhi's essay skips over one important statement by the Buddha

"When you yourselves know: 'These things are bad, blamable, censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them... When you yourselves know: 'These things are good, blameless, praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them."


Through what is apparent


There is also no denying that the Sutta does contain a sceptical element, a caution against being credulous :meditate:
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: The Kalama Sutta and Scepticism

Post by Jhana4 »

It has been a year since I read Venerable Bodhi's essay, but if I remember his point was that the parts of the sutta you quoted were the Buddha's advice to the Kalamas for choosing a religion, not the attitude to take once they chose.

I'm not sure I agree with his interpretation, but I think his point was once you were done evaluating your choice of religion to follow, you put the skepticism aside and followed the Buddha on faith.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
santa100
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Re: The Kalama Sutta and Scepticism

Post by santa100 »

clw_uk wrote:However Ven. Bodhi's essay skips over one important statement by the Buddha

"When you yourselves know: 'These things are bad, blamable, censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them... When you yourselves know: 'These things are good, blameless, praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them."
Ven. Bodhi certainly didn't advocate blind faith. On the other hand, to go completely solo without paying attention to the words of the wise is also not the way to go..(also see SN 45.2: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html )
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Re: The Kalama Sutta and Scepticism

Post by Jhana4 »

santa100 wrote: Ven. Bodhi certainly didn't advocate blind faith.
I can agree with you only technically. In that essay he did not write the term "blind faith", but he did write that the kind of questioning the Buddha advocated to the Kalama's for choosing a religion was to be abandoned once and if they decided on Buddhism.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
santa100
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Re: The Kalama Sutta and Scepticism

Post by santa100 »

Jhana4 wrote:I can agree with you only technically. In that essay he did not write the term "blind faith", but he did write that the kind of questioning the Buddha advocated to the Kalama's for choosing a religion was to be abandoned once and if they decided on Buddhism.
I couldn't find anything in the essay about question "to be abandoned" as you mentioned. Ven. Bodhi was quite explicit in his analysis:
We begin with an immediately verifiable teaching whose validity can be attested by anyone with the moral integrity to follow it through to its conclusions, namely, that the defilements cause harm and suffering both personal and social, that their removal brings peace and happiness, and that the practices taught by the Buddha are effective means for achieving their removal. By putting this teaching to a personal test, with only a provisional trust in the Buddha as one's collateral, one eventually arrives at a firmer, experientially grounded confidence in the liberating and purifying power of the Dhamma
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Re: The Kalama Sutta and Scepticism

Post by Spiny Norman »

clw_uk wrote:There is also no denying that the Sutta does contain a sceptical element, a caution against being credulous :meditate:
I think in a nutshell the Kalama Sutta is an encouragement to develop Right Intention, and not to get caught up in views - including one's own.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Kalama Sutta and Scepticism

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote:There is also no denying that the Sutta does contain a sceptical element, a caution against being credulous :meditate:
I think in a nutshell the Kalama Sutta is an encouragement to develop Right Intention, and not to get caught up in views - including one's own.

But right intention comes to be via right view, right view arising through detached observation of how things appear to be.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Kalama Sutta and Scepticism

Post by Ceisiwr »

santa100 wrote:
clw_uk wrote:However Ven. Bodhi's essay skips over one important statement by the Buddha

"When you yourselves know: 'These things are bad, blamable, censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them... When you yourselves know: 'These things are good, blameless, praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them."
Ven. Bodhi certainly didn't advocate blind faith. On the other hand, to go completely solo without paying attention to the words of the wise is also not the way to go..(also see SN 45.2: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html )


The words of the wise are to see for yourself and not to blindly follow doctrines, do you agree?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Kalama Sutta and Scepticism

Post by Ceisiwr »

To further the thread further, I see scepticism as a part of Buddhadhamma... Maybe not to the pyrrhonist level, but I see it there.


The focus on the here and now, the acknowledgment of only that which is apparent.


However even if I am wrong, I can see a benefit in a mix of pyrrhonism and Buddhadhamma
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
santa100
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Re: The Kalama Sutta and Scepticism

Post by santa100 »

clw_uk wrote:The words of the wise are to see for yourself and not to blindly follow doctrines, do you agree?
Obviously, as already mentioned in my 2 posts above..
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Re: The Kalama Sutta and Scepticism

Post by Ceisiwr »

santa100 wrote:
clw_uk wrote:The words of the wise are to see for yourself and not to blindly follow doctrines, do you agree?
Obviously, as already mentioned in my 2 posts above..

Which is a sceptical argument
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
santa100
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Re: The Kalama Sutta and Scepticism

Post by santa100 »

I wouldn't label it like that. For issue like rebirth, which is yet to have "seen it for yourself", do you:

1. Throw away and conclude that it's a false idea? OR
2. Set it aside to wait and see?

Same question for: nibbana, the 6 supernatural powers, the four jhanas, the four immaterial attainments, the mind-made body, the cessation attainment, stream entry, once-return, non-return, and arahant fruit ?
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Re: The Kalama Sutta and Scepticism

Post by Nikaya35 »

santa100 wrote:I wouldn't label it like that. For issue like rebirth, which is yet to have "seen it for yourself", do you:

1. Throw away and conclude that it's a false idea? OR
2. Set it aside to wait and see?

Same question for: nibbana, the 6 supernatural powers, the four jhanas, the four immaterial attainments, the mind-made body, and the cessation attainment ?
^ This . All the stuff you mentioned above is faith based . That's why Buddhism is a religion .
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