Hello
A while ago my cat brought me a bird he had caught. I manged to get the bird free from him, however the bird was clearly in a lot of pain and was near death so I decided to kill it by breaking it's neck, to put it out of its misery.
However I am at a loss if this is negative kamma or not. I didn't act out of any hatred or aversion, yet I killed it.
It has been troubling me, both morally and philosophically, so any comments are welcome
Mercy killing and kamma
Mercy killing and kamma
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma
Will you be happier to allow it to die slowly in pain?
Will you want someone to break your neck if you are in total misery?
Some Bhikkhu i consulted had condemned such act. They said it would be interfering with kamma which in your case:
-will cause the bird to get a bad rebirth in order to continue receiving what is unfinished.
-you just break the 1st precept, what more need to say...
I'm not clear what is troubling you as you mentioned you did it out of sympathy, not aversion nor selfish reason.
Will you want someone to break your neck if you are in total misery?
Some Bhikkhu i consulted had condemned such act. They said it would be interfering with kamma which in your case:
-will cause the bird to get a bad rebirth in order to continue receiving what is unfinished.
-you just break the 1st precept, what more need to say...
I'm not clear what is troubling you as you mentioned you did it out of sympathy, not aversion nor selfish reason.
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma
Greetings,
Metta,
Retro.
Well, this bhikkhu is trading in superstitious mumbo-jumbo that has no real foundation in the suttas.... so I wouldn't be overly bothered by that, especially when the poor bird was going to die anyway.barcsimalsi wrote:Some Bhikkhu i consulted had condemned such act. They said it would be interfering with kamma which in your case:
-will cause the bird to get a bad rebirth in order to continue receiving what is unfinished.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Mercy killing and kamma
You say you are at a loss. You say you are troubled. Seems like the fruits of negative kamma to me.....I guess.....don't know for sure......clw_uk wrote:Hello
A while ago my cat brought me a bird he had caught. I manged to get the bird free from him, however the bird was clearly in a lot of pain and was near death so I decided to kill it by breaking it's neck, to put it out of its misery.
However I am at a loss if this is negative kamma or not. I didn't act out of any hatred or aversion, yet I killed it.
It has been troubling me, both morally and philosophically, so any comments are welcome
chownah
Re: Mercy killing and kamma
The Buddha said that "the precise working out of the results of kamma" is an unconjecturable.chownah wrote:Seems like the fruits of negative kamma to me....I guess...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Re: Mercy killing and kamma
In my understanding, the act of killing is always preceded by an unwholesome mental state, and always breaks the first precept. So it is negative kamma. But we are not monks and so unwholesome things may be 'necessary' in lay life. My take on it is that even though you are putting the animal out of its misery, you are doing great harm to yourself.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26
Iti 26
Re: Mercy killing and kamma
The Buddha defined karma in the anguttara Nikaya as a volitional action . So intention is the most important thing discussing karma . Your intention was to end the suffering of the poor bird . The bird was going to die anyways . You should not be too hard on yourself .
Re: Mercy killing and kamma
Coyote wrote:In my understanding, the act of killing is always preceded by an unwholesome mental state, and always breaks the first precept. So it is negative kamma. But we are not monks and so unwholesome things may be 'necessary' in lay life. My take on it is that even though you are putting the animal out of its misery, you are doing great harm to yourself.
But Kamma is intention, so how can a mercy killing be negative Kamma?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Mercy killing and kamma
I agree with chownah and Coyote, I think what you're experiencing currently is the kamma from the act.
You didn't act out of hatred or aversion, but was your mercy killing out of selfishness? Not wanting to see and allow the bird to suffer? Not liking the way it made you feel? You acted, but now maybe you're unsure whether or not you did what was best for the bird?
Its a difficult situation, and its over now. If it still bothers you, you've identified what your intentions weren't, maybe pin down what they were?
You didn't act out of hatred or aversion, but was your mercy killing out of selfishness? Not wanting to see and allow the bird to suffer? Not liking the way it made you feel? You acted, but now maybe you're unsure whether or not you did what was best for the bird?
Its a difficult situation, and its over now. If it still bothers you, you've identified what your intentions weren't, maybe pin down what they were?
Re: Mercy killing and kamma
Well I dont feel bad or "negative" just perplexed and curiousI agree with chownah and Coyote, I think what you're experiencing currently is the kamma from the act.
It was simply "poor thing" and that he/she was better of dead as quick as, rather than suffer. I didnt feel aversion, I wanted to help. To be honest it felt more like something that I had to do.You didn't act out of hatred or aversion, but was your mercy killing out of selfishness? Not wanting to see and allow the bird to suffer? Not liking the way it made you feel? You acted, but now maybe you're unsure whether or not you did what was best for the bird?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Mercy killing and kamma
Dear clw,
Oh, clw_uk seems to have trouble, morally and philosophically.
I can't stand watching that, I better break his neck to put him and me out of misery.
[irony off]
Sure this was an unwholesome action. No matter what has been your idea of th situation, you intentionally killed a sentient being. No doubt about that.
Wholesome would have been a hospice action with an uplifted mind.
Don't worry. Forgive yourself for making that mistake. Start again by taking the precepts and meaning it.
Best Wishes,
Mirco
[irony on]clw_uk wrote:A while ago my cat brought me a bird he had caught. I manged to get the bird free from him, however the bird was clearly in a lot of pain and was near death so I decided to kill it by breaking it's neck, to put it out of its misery.
However I am at a loss if this is negative kamma or not. I didn't act out of any hatred or aversion, yet I killed it.
It has been troubling me, both morally and philosophically, so any comments are welcome
Oh, clw_uk seems to have trouble, morally and philosophically.
I can't stand watching that, I better break his neck to put him and me out of misery.
[irony off]
Sure this was an unwholesome action. No matter what has been your idea of th situation, you intentionally killed a sentient being. No doubt about that.
Wholesome would have been a hospice action with an uplifted mind.
Don't worry. Forgive yourself for making that mistake. Start again by taking the precepts and meaning it.
Best Wishes,
Mirco
Re: Mercy killing and kamma
It wasnt a case of "I cant stand watching that" but "Poor thing, lets make it quick". I felt sorry, not disturbed.[irony on]
Oh, clw_uk seems to have trouble, morally and philosophically.
I can't stand watching that, I better break his neck to put him and me out of misery.
[irony off]
But the motivation wasnt aversion, greed or delusionSure this was an unwholesome action. No matter what has been your idea of th situation, you intentionally killed a sentient being. No doubt about that.
The bird would have died, slowly, before the RSPCA arrivedWholesome would have been a hospice action with an uplifted mind.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Mercy killing and kamma
It's a tough situation. Have all alternative options been considered before taking that action as a last resort? Bandaging help? Any veterinary office nearby? etc...
Re: Mercy killing and kamma
Us? How do you know that is what the bird wanted? You read birds minds?clw_uk wrote:It wasnt a case of "I cant stand watching that" but "Poor thing, lets make it quick"
Sure it was aversion, greed and delusion.clw_uk wrote:But the motivation wasnt aversion, greed or delusion.Sure this was an unwholesome action. No matter what has been your idea of th situation, you intentionally killed a sentient being. No doubt about that.
Aversion: I don't like the situation of that birdy.
Greed: I want it to be another way.
Delusion: Well, if D. would not have been in there, you wouldn't have killed it intentionally.
I spot sarcasm?clw_uk wrote:The bird would have died, slowly, before the RSPCA arrived
I meant, it could have been you, making it as comfortable as possible for the bird, wishing it all well, radiating Mettā, letting it know, that everything is all right just the way it is, letting it die all by itself.
Best Wishes,
Mirco
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Re: Mercy killing and kamma
A reply by Mahāsi Sayādaw on The Practice of Euthanasia
A specific case from the Vinaya:
A bhikkhu, out of compassion, once said to an Execution, “Kill him with one blow.” The execution did as the bhikkhu said. They reported this matter to the Blessed One, who told the bhikkhu: “You have fallen into an offence of defeat.”
The volition at the moment of killing is rooted in aversion (dosa), so it is unwholesome kamma. The right thing to do is to take the bird from the cat, put it in a quiet and safe place, and leave it to die of it's injuries (if you don't have the skill to heal it).
A specific case from the Vinaya:
A bhikkhu, out of compassion, once said to an Execution, “Kill him with one blow.” The execution did as the bhikkhu said. They reported this matter to the Blessed One, who told the bhikkhu: “You have fallen into an offence of defeat.”
The volition at the moment of killing is rooted in aversion (dosa), so it is unwholesome kamma. The right thing to do is to take the bird from the cat, put it in a quiet and safe place, and leave it to die of it's injuries (if you don't have the skill to heal it).
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