the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

Eh, if all the chickens currently in captivity were released tomorrow, there would be a lot of happy dogs, wolves and coyotes. Then no more chickens. They cannot survive in the wild.

In my opinion, being a vegetarian does not eliminate suffering. This is self-congratulatory delusion. All sentient beings are born into suffering. This is the teaching of the Buddha. The only cure for it is to eliminate the roots: delusion, aversion, clinging.

I'm a vegetarian for different reasons. I just think it's in bad taste, not to mention bad manners, to eat other people.

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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lyndon taylor »

One of the root causes for suffering, is causing suffering for other beings, being a vegetarian doesn't remove suffering, but it does reduce it, in some small way.

Also people keep saying we are naturally carnivores, if this was true our nearest physical relative the chimpanzee would be a carnivore too, with forward focusing eyes and teeth like ours, when in fact chimps and other monkeys and apes etc are vegetarian in almost all instances......
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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Alex123
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Alex123 »

lyndon taylor wrote:Also people keep saying we are naturally carnivores,
We are omnivores, and with imperfect digestive system.

We, unfortunately, differ from herbivores. Just because a lean, muscular, and ultra strong 150-400 pound gorilla can get all it needs from foliage, and fruits doesn't mean anything for humans. We can't synthesis essential amino acids, and other nutrients from foliage, grass, etc. We can't synthesis vitamin C, for example. Etc etc.


A vegetarian must be very careful to get all the necessary nutrients.
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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lyndon taylor »

You haven't even tried, have you, its very easy to get all your nutrients from a vegetarian diet, vegan is a bit harder, its also very hard to get no negative effects on your health from eating lots of meat.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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Alex123
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Alex123 »

lyndon taylor wrote:You haven't even tried, have you, .

Actually, believe it or not - I did. But after a while I started to crave too much KFC and salty pork lard. I guess my body wanted to tell me something. I am not sure if meat substitutes will help.

I guess it is possible to eat coconut oil for healthy fats and cholesterol... But it is expensive.
lyndon taylor wrote:its also very hard to get no negative effects on your health from eating lots of meat.
Not meat but anti-biotics and other things that can go there.

As if fruits&vegetables don't have their own problems. Pesticides, irradiation, GM plants, etc.
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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

I do not believe that being a vegetarian reduces suffering. This is faulty understanding of buddhadhamma. Follow please:

It is taught in Theravada that kamma is the single-most factor determining the condition of rebirth (see abhidhamma for blow-by-blow description). Therefore if it is the fruiting of kamma of a being to be reborn in the animal womb, and in addition to be reborn as food, then it will be so. If an increase in vegetarianism reduces the number of animals killed in factory farms, then isn't it likely--according to the teachings--that the animal will be born in the wild, killed and eaten?

I believe so.

I saw on television a nature program showing a baby elephant that had been attacked and partially eaten by hyenas. It was beyond rescue; dying, and one of its eyes had been eaten out. It was a heart-wrenching and piteous sight to witness. Perhaps, I thought, this was the fruiting of a sentient being who had been "saved" from rebirth in a factory farm. I don't know, but I strongly suspect.

This world is hard, unsavory, often terrible.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

lyndon taylor wrote:One of the root causes for suffering, is causing suffering for other beings, being a vegetarian doesn't remove suffering, but it does reduce it, in some small way.

Also people keep saying we are naturally carnivores, if this was true our nearest physical relative the chimpanzee would be a carnivore too, with forward focusing eyes and teeth like ours, when in fact chimps and other monkeys and apes etc are vegetarian in almost all instances......


Actually chimpanzees hunt down monkey's, tear them limb from limb and eat them. They also have forward facing eyes and hunt in packs.


As for humans, we are omnivores (we eat meat, vegetables, fungus and fruit). This is why I described our anatomy. Forward facing eyes are a characteristic of a predator, they are better for pin pointing prey, distance etc ( herbivores eyes are sideway facing to better scan for predators) our teeth have canines for eating flesh, as well as molars for grinding plant matter etc.


As I said, humans are designed to kill. Our hunting ability is also one of the factors that made us intelligent ( predators tend to be more smart/cunning than prey).

Now from a Dharmic perspective, killing is negative kamma. It is unskilful and leads ta growth of the ego, not to a reduction of it. However if the meat is already there then there is no harm in eating it. Hence why buying from a supermarket is not negative kamma. It's only if you kill the animal yourself or if it's killed for you, this is the problem.


On a side note not everyone can afford the vegertarian diet, and in some circumstances it is a necessity (for example low cost chicken to feed children)


It would be great if everyone was vegetarian, but realistically that wont happen.


The best hope for the welfare of animals is lab grown meat, which personally I'm quite excited about :)
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
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cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

What do chimps eat?

Unlike other apes such as gorillas and orangutans which are almost entirely herbivorous (plant-eating), chimps are classified as omnivores. This means that, like humans, they eat a variety of plant and animal foods.

While the vast bulk of the chimpanzee’s diet is made up of plant foods including fruits, seeds, nuts, leaves and flowers, they will also eat insects and even larger animals that they have hunted and killed themselves.


...

Dr. Goodall received another startling answer to the question of what chimps eat when she observed groups of male chimpanzees conducting seemingly organized hunts of red colobus monkeys. After they had captured their prey, the chimps ate every part of the monkey, including the brain. They sometimes also shared some of the meat with female chimps who had not participated in the hunt.

Despite their hunting behavior, however, only a very tiny percentage–perhaps as small as two percent–of a wild chimp’s diet consists of meat or insects.
http://www.allaboutwildlife.com/what-do-chimps-eat
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

lyndon taylor wrote:You haven't even tried, have you, its very easy to get all your nutrients from a vegetarian diet, vegan is a bit harder, its also very hard to get no negative effects on your health from eating lots of meat.

That's great if you can afford it, however some families can only afford meat to feed their children.


Also does anyone know if it's healthy to take meat out of a growing child's diet?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lyndon taylor »

well then enjoy being like a chimp......
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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DNS
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS »

BubbaBuddhist wrote:I do not believe that being a vegetarian reduces suffering.
I agree it definitely doesn't reduce suffering. In fact, it increases suffering. A vegetarian must endure countless, "OMG, what do you even eat?" or "so you think you're better than me, right?" and countless others.

Seriously though, I agree it doesn't reduce suffering. Most vegetarians choose that diet for nutritional, environmental, ethical or religious reasons. Being vegetarian won't get you enlightened and I never met one who thinks that way but heard that are a few who think like that.

As I mentioned before, it doesn't matter what animals do, they are in the woeful states. It may have been Ajahn Chah or another famous monk who said something like, "all beings must endure their kamma, but I don't want to be the one administering that kamma."
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

lyndon taylor wrote:well then enjoy being like a chimp......

Oh come on now, really? :/ :?


I'm not endorsing killing animals, I'm just being realistic with how the situation is at the moment.


In my ideal world we would all be vegertarian, or have the option of lab grown meat that was affordable to the poorest, and no animals would be killed.


However that's just not reality at the moment.


P.S. most of my genetic make up is related to chimps, so guess I'm most of the way there ... And 35% of me is related to daffodils I hear ;)
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Aloka
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Aloka »

clw_uk wrote:
Also does anyone know if it's healthy to take meat out of a growing child's diet?
Growing childen can eat vegetarian diets and be healthy. I know Jain and Hindu families as well as westerners who have never eaten meat all their lives and they all seem pretty healthy.

.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Being vegetarian won't get you enlightened and I never met one who thinks that way but heard that are a few who think like that.
Couldn't agree more. Also, all economic and evolutionary arguments aside, let's not forget that the Buddha refused to make vegetarianism a rule.



Why was that we must ask?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Aloka wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Also does anyone know if it's healthy to take meat out of a growing child's diet?
Growing childen can eat vegetarian diets and be healthy. I know Jain and Hindu families as well as westerners who have never eaten meat all their lives and they all seem pretty healthy.

.

I suppose it could be done if worked out properly in terms of nutrition :) once again though the financial aspect does come into play


Personally, if I ever had children (not very likely), I would give them meat to eat.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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