the great vegetarian debate

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Aloka » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:46 pm

clw_uk wrote:. Now in karmic terms, killing is unwholesome however I don't see a problem with buying meat from the supermarkets. It's going to be there anyway and it will either be bought by someone else or just thrown away.

Life feeds of life, that's also one of the factors that drove evolution. Sadly that's the way it is.


The meat in supermarkets is there because of the demand for meat. If people didn't want to buy and eat meat then animals wouldn't be bred and killed and pieces of them wouldn't be there on the meat shelves for customers to buy. Its a cop-out to say "Oh well I buy it because its already there" because you are contributing to that demand.

My non-Buddhist father ate chicken and then he saw what actually happened to chickens and how they were treated and then killed and he was so horrified he couldn't eat chicken again . Similarly someone else I know who was a meat eating Buddhist, went to a slaugherhouse for the meat trade and was so upset at what he saw that he never ate it again.


.
Last edited by Aloka on Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Aloka
 
Posts: 3720
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:50 pm

Aloka wrote:
clw_uk wrote:. Now in karmic terms, killing is unwholesome however I don't see a problem with buying meat from the supermarkets. It's going to be there anyway and it will either be bought by someone else or just thrown away.

Life feeds of life, that's also one of the factors that drove evolution. Sadly that's the way it is.


The meat in supermarkets is there because of the demand for meat. If people didn't want to buy and eat meat then animals wouldn't be bred and killed and pieces of them wouldn't be there on the meat shelves. Its a cop-out to say "Oh well I buy it because already there" because you are contributing to that demand.

My father ate chicken and then he saw what actually happened to chickens and how they were killed and was so horrified he couldn't eat them again and he wasn't even a vegetarian. Similarly someone else I know who was a meat eater, went to a slaugherhouse for the meat trade and never ate it again.


.



But the demand will always be there. You won't turn everyone vegetarian, that's too idealistic.


The best hope for animals is the lab grown meat that's being developed
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Aloka » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:55 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Aloka wrote:
clw_uk wrote:. Now in karmic terms, killing is unwholesome however I don't see a problem with buying meat from the supermarkets. It's going to be there anyway and it will either be bought by someone else or just thrown away.

Life feeds of life, that's also one of the factors that drove evolution. Sadly that's the way it is.


The meat in supermarkets is there because of the demand for meat. If people didn't want to buy and eat meat then animals wouldn't be bred and killed and pieces of them wouldn't be there on the meat shelves. Its a cop-out to say "Oh well I buy it because already there" because you are contributing to that demand.

My father ate chicken and then he saw what actually happened to chickens and how they were killed and was so horrified he couldn't eat them again and he wasn't even a vegetarian. Similarly someone else I know who was a meat eater, went to a slaugherhouse for the meat trade and never ate it again.


.



But the demand will always be there. You won't turn everyone vegetarian, that's too idealistic.


The best hope for animals is the lab grown meat that's being developed



I'm not trying to turn everyone vegetarian, Craig, I'm just putting forward some points in a debate.


:)
User avatar
Aloka
 
Posts: 3720
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:59 pm

I'm not trying to turn everyone vegetarian, Craig, I'm just putting forward some points in a debate.


I know :) im just saying there will always be a huge demand for meat, so it's not a cop-out to say it will be there regardless.
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby beeblebrox » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:40 pm

Ajhan Sumedho's experience with vegetarian diet:
===========
I found myself
aiming for the vegetarian dishes first so that I could
pass them out according to my own needs. It brought
up a really childish tendency in me. Then one day
another monk saw me doing this, so he grabbed the
vegetarian dish first and only gave me a little spoonful.
I was so angry when I saw that. I took this fermented
fish sauce, this really strong stuff and when I went past
his bowl, I splattered it all over his food! Fortunately,
we were forbidden to hit each other. This is an
absolute necessity for men — to have rules against
physical violence!
:)

Page 28

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/intui ... reness.pdf

I was trying to live up to an ideal of vegetarian purity,
and yet in the process having these really violent
feelings towards other monks. What’s this about? ItIntuitive Awareness 29
was a vindictive act to splatter all that strong chili
sauce with rotten fish in it over some monk’s food. It
was a violent act in order for me to keep a sense that
I’m a pure vegetarian. So I began to question whether
I wanted to make food into such a big deal in my life.
Was I wanting to live my life as a vegetarian or what?
Was that the main focus that I was aiming at? Just
contemplating this, I began to see the suffering I
created around my idealism. I noticed Luang Por
Chah certainly enjoyed his food and he had a joyful
presence. It wasn’t like an ascetic trip where you’re
eating nettle soup and rejecting the good bits; that’s
the other extreme.


Hi all,

I think these have more to do with Ven. Sumhedo's motivation with being a vegetarian, rather than making a choice in what to eat in itself... it's a red herring (or at least in the way these seemed to be posted).

What if a person's reason to be a vegetarian was sincere, and it showed in other areas of his life? Will that be OK? Do you think it's still right if some carnivores/omnivores criticize him for what he eats, or make fun of him?

If a vegetarian didn't react these in a negative way, what will you think? Do you think the non-vegetarian should persist with his taunting till the person cracks?

:anjali:
Last edited by beeblebrox on Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
beeblebrox
 
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:47 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:you're not eating wolves and foxes, are you????


No I am not eating them. But what I want people to keep in mind is that tigers, wolves, foxes, sharks, etc, do not treat their prey better than us. Perhaps in some way they cause more pain.

Chances are that chicken (not in a factory farm) one eats could have lived a better life than in the wild, and died not as painfully as in the wild.
"dust to dust...."
User avatar
Alex123
 
Posts: 2908
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:58 pm

Animals have no choice in killing or how they kill animals. Human beings have that capacity. Human beings also kill far more animals than animals. I think over 8 - 9 billion land animals per year are killed for food. That is more than the human population of the planet. On top of keeping all of those animals alive in torturous conditions (something animals do not do ) in factory farms, that is a LOT of waste and pollution we are generating that is going to come back to haunt us, as well as our children.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
 
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:02 pm

Jhana4 wrote:Animals have no choice in killing or how they kill animals. Human beings have that capacity. Human beings also kill far more animals than animals. I think over 8 - 9 billion land animals per year are killed for food. That is more than the human population of the planet. On top of keeping all of those animals alive in torturous conditions (something animals do not do ) in factory farms, that is a LOT of waste and pollution we are generating that is going to come back to haunt us, as well as our children.



Some humans don't have a choice
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:54 pm

Eh, if all the chickens currently in captivity were released tomorrow, there would be a lot of happy dogs, wolves and coyotes. Then no more chickens. They cannot survive in the wild.

In my opinion, being a vegetarian does not eliminate suffering. This is self-congratulatory delusion. All sentient beings are born into suffering. This is the teaching of the Buddha. The only cure for it is to eliminate the roots: delusion, aversion, clinging.

I'm a vegetarian for different reasons. I just think it's in bad taste, not to mention bad manners, to eat other people.

BB
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?
User avatar
BubbaBuddhist
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:55 am
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:00 pm

One of the root causes for suffering, is causing suffering for other beings, being a vegetarian doesn't remove suffering, but it does reduce it, in some small way.

Also people keep saying we are naturally carnivores, if this was true our nearest physical relative the chimpanzee would be a carnivore too, with forward focusing eyes and teeth like ours, when in fact chimps and other monkeys and apes etc are vegetarian in almost all instances......
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
User avatar
lyndon taylor
 
Posts: 877
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Location: Redlands, Southern California, USA

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:22 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:Also people keep saying we are naturally carnivores,


We are omnivores, and with imperfect digestive system.

We, unfortunately, differ from herbivores. Just because a lean, muscular, and ultra strong 150-400 pound gorilla can get all it needs from foliage, and fruits doesn't mean anything for humans. We can't synthesis essential amino acids, and other nutrients from foliage, grass, etc. We can't synthesis vitamin C, for example. Etc etc.


A vegetarian must be very careful to get all the necessary nutrients.
"dust to dust...."
User avatar
Alex123
 
Posts: 2908
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:26 pm

You haven't even tried, have you, its very easy to get all your nutrients from a vegetarian diet, vegan is a bit harder, its also very hard to get no negative effects on your health from eating lots of meat.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
User avatar
lyndon taylor
 
Posts: 877
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Location: Redlands, Southern California, USA

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:29 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:You haven't even tried, have you, .



Actually, believe it or not - I did. But after a while I started to crave too much KFC and salty pork lard. I guess my body wanted to tell me something. I am not sure if meat substitutes will help.

I guess it is possible to eat coconut oil for healthy fats and cholesterol... But it is expensive.

lyndon taylor wrote:its also very hard to get no negative effects on your health from eating lots of meat.


Not meat but anti-biotics and other things that can go there.

As if fruits&vegetables don't have their own problems. Pesticides, irradiation, GM plants, etc.
"dust to dust...."
User avatar
Alex123
 
Posts: 2908
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:12 pm

I do not believe that being a vegetarian reduces suffering. This is faulty understanding of buddhadhamma. Follow please:

It is taught in Theravada that kamma is the single-most factor determining the condition of rebirth (see abhidhamma for blow-by-blow description). Therefore if it is the fruiting of kamma of a being to be reborn in the animal womb, and in addition to be reborn as food, then it will be so. If an increase in vegetarianism reduces the number of animals killed in factory farms, then isn't it likely--according to the teachings--that the animal will be born in the wild, killed and eaten?

I believe so.

I saw on television a nature program showing a baby elephant that had been attacked and partially eaten by hyenas. It was beyond rescue; dying, and one of its eyes had been eaten out. It was a heart-wrenching and piteous sight to witness. Perhaps, I thought, this was the fruiting of a sentient being who had been "saved" from rebirth in a factory farm. I don't know, but I strongly suspect.

This world is hard, unsavory, often terrible.

BB
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?
User avatar
BubbaBuddhist
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:55 am
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:26 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:One of the root causes for suffering, is causing suffering for other beings, being a vegetarian doesn't remove suffering, but it does reduce it, in some small way.

Also people keep saying we are naturally carnivores, if this was true our nearest physical relative the chimpanzee would be a carnivore too, with forward focusing eyes and teeth like ours, when in fact chimps and other monkeys and apes etc are vegetarian in almost all instances......



Actually chimpanzees hunt down monkey's, tear them limb from limb and eat them. They also have forward facing eyes and hunt in packs.


As for humans, we are omnivores (we eat meat, vegetables, fungus and fruit). This is why I described our anatomy. Forward facing eyes are a characteristic of a predator, they are better for pin pointing prey, distance etc ( herbivores eyes are sideway facing to better scan for predators) our teeth have canines for eating flesh, as well as molars for grinding plant matter etc.


As I said, humans are designed to kill. Our hunting ability is also one of the factors that made us intelligent ( predators tend to be more smart/cunning than prey).

Now from a Dharmic perspective, killing is negative kamma. It is unskilful and leads ta growth of the ego, not to a reduction of it. However if the meat is already there then there is no harm in eating it. Hence why buying from a supermarket is not negative kamma. It's only if you kill the animal yourself or if it's killed for you, this is the problem.


On a side note not everyone can afford the vegertarian diet, and in some circumstances it is a necessity (for example low cost chicken to feed children)


It would be great if everyone was vegetarian, but realistically that wont happen.


The best hope for the welfare of animals is lab grown meat, which personally I'm quite excited about :)
Last edited by clw_uk on Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:39 pm

What do chimps eat?

Unlike other apes such as gorillas and orangutans which are almost entirely herbivorous (plant-eating), chimps are classified as omnivores. This means that, like humans, they eat a variety of plant and animal foods.

While the vast bulk of the chimpanzee’s diet is made up of plant foods including fruits, seeds, nuts, leaves and flowers, they will also eat insects and even larger animals that they have hunted and killed themselves.


...

Dr. Goodall received another startling answer to the question of what chimps eat when she observed groups of male chimpanzees conducting seemingly organized hunts of red colobus monkeys. After they had captured their prey, the chimps ate every part of the monkey, including the brain. They sometimes also shared some of the meat with female chimps who had not participated in the hunt.

Despite their hunting behavior, however, only a very tiny percentage–perhaps as small as two percent–of a wild chimp’s diet consists of meat or insects.



http://www.allaboutwildlife.com/what-do-chimps-eat
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:45 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:You haven't even tried, have you, its very easy to get all your nutrients from a vegetarian diet, vegan is a bit harder, its also very hard to get no negative effects on your health from eating lots of meat.



That's great if you can afford it, however some families can only afford meat to feed their children.


Also does anyone know if it's healthy to take meat out of a growing child's diet?
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:46 pm

well then enjoy being like a chimp......
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
User avatar
lyndon taylor
 
Posts: 877
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Location: Redlands, Southern California, USA

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:49 pm

BubbaBuddhist wrote:I do not believe that being a vegetarian reduces suffering.


I agree it definitely doesn't reduce suffering. In fact, it increases suffering. A vegetarian must endure countless, "OMG, what do you even eat?" or "so you think you're better than me, right?" and countless others.

Seriously though, I agree it doesn't reduce suffering. Most vegetarians choose that diet for nutritional, environmental, ethical or religious reasons. Being vegetarian won't get you enlightened and I never met one who thinks that way but heard that are a few who think like that.

As I mentioned before, it doesn't matter what animals do, they are in the woeful states. It may have been Ajahn Chah or another famous monk who said something like, "all beings must endure their kamma, but I don't want to be the one administering that kamma."
User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8153
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:51 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:well then enjoy being like a chimp......



Oh come on now, really? :/ :?


I'm not endorsing killing animals, I'm just being realistic with how the situation is at the moment.


In my ideal world we would all be vegertarian, or have the option of lab grown meat that was affordable to the poorest, and no animals would be killed.


However that's just not reality at the moment.


P.S. most of my genetic make up is related to chimps, so guess I'm most of the way there ... And 35% of me is related to daffodils I hear ;)
Last edited by clw_uk on Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests