the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
dagon
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by dagon »

Jhana4 wrote:
dagon wrote: Some of the aggressive and attached people i know are vegetarians - some of the kindest are vegetarians - i guess that it is what is going on in the mind and how the self is identified that makes the difference, not the menu choices that are made.

metta
paul
I don't mean any disrespect Paul. I think the passage you quoted is an argument ad hominem with the underlying motive to discredit vegetarians to make it easier to dismiss them rather than having to think about what they have to say. Isn't that attachment to views, something which Buddhism warns people about?

As to some other implied points, most vegetarians are vegetarians because they are very aware that animals have the capacity to suffer, they want to live like we do and they want to avoid pain like we do. People have a hard time being agreeable when something horrible is in the process of happening. A creature being that suffers like we do, being put into pain and killed.

If any person had that view, they would feel very strongly and would say something about at least avoiding using animal products.

That is the point were I interjected my comment, a subtle making fun of monks seeking out vegetarian food. Someone trying to sustain themselves without hurting another creature like themselves. It is my belief that is the result of many people not being able to handle the fact they could unknowingly be doing something horrible so they discredit the people who provoke those thoughts.

The dhamma is about seeing things as they are, especially unpleasant things we intentionally avoid looking at like death, aging, dukkha. The value in looking at things it would be easier to avoid seeing is to make things better.
Hi Jhana

I read the whole of that book and my assessment of what was being said was VERY different to yours. I should read it again because i can cleanly see that you have more wisdom than me - even about my dietary preferences.

You are so right about me wishing to avoid seeing things as they are - especially sickness, suffering and old age.

I spent to day looking after old, sick dying people in a nursing home - how did you spend you day?

metta
paul
Jhana4
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Jhana4 »

My view of things is that I wrote a reply to a post trying to discredit what I consider to be a noble endeavor by stereotyping and dismissing the people who attempt it. My reply consisted of what I honestly think. I got back sarcasm. I know little about you beyond your screen name and a few facts. I will leave things at wishing you to have a happy Tuesday.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Alex123
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Alex123 »

lyndon taylor wrote:I went to the cow pasture; no cows eating animals!!! Then I went to the pig farm; no pigs eating animals!!!! Then the sheep pasture; no sheep eating animals! And finally the chicken coop; no chickens eating animals! maybe we should learn something from the animals........

What about wolves, foxes and other animals like that? They cut the prey to pieces making "look at factory farms!" seem ridiculous. As much as I am against mistreatment of animals and seen few clips of "factory farms", the real life is as bad if not worse than that.
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DNS
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS »

It doesn't matter what animals do. They are in the 'woeful states' and not something we need to emulate. The vegetarian for religious reasons (whatever religion that might be; HIndu, Jain, some Buddhists) would argue that humans have attained to a higher level than animals and are held to a higher standard.
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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lyndon taylor »

Alex123 wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:I went to the cow pasture; no cows eating animals!!! Then I went to the pig farm; no pigs eating animals!!!! Then the sheep pasture; no sheep eating animals! And finally the chicken coop; no chickens eating animals! maybe we should learn something from the animals........

What about wolves, foxes and other animals like that? They cut the prey to pieces making "look at factory farms!" seem ridiculous. As much as I am against mistreatment of animals and seen few clips of "factory farms", the real life is as bad if not worse than that.

you're not eating wolves and foxes, are you????
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lyndon taylor »

David N. Snyder wrote:It doesn't matter what animals do. They are in the 'woeful states' and not something we need to emulate. The vegetarian for religious reasons (whatever religion that might be; HIndu, Jain, some Buddhists) would argue that humans have attained to a higher level than animals and are held to a higher standard.

It would seem as regards what we will eat, most of us haven't acheived a higher state than a cow!!!!!!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

lyndon taylor wrote:I went to the cow pasture; no cows eating animals!!! Then I went to the pig farm; no pigs eating animals!!!! Then the sheep pasture; no sheep eating animals! And finally the chicken coop; no chickens eating animals! maybe we should learn something from the animals........

As much as we try to get away from it, humans are built to hunt and kill as well as eat vegetables. That is why we have forward facing eyes and canine teeth as well as molars.

Now vegetarianism is ideal, however it's not practical for everyone. Also let's not forget they vegetarianism is not a pre-requisit for enlightenment.

Also the Buddha ate meat as we all know. Now in karmic terms, killing is unwholesome however I don't see a problem with buying meat from the supermarkets. It's going to be there anyway and it will either be bought by someone else or just thrown away.


Life feeds off life. That's one of the factors that drives evolution. Sadly that's the way it is.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Aloka
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Aloka »

clw_uk wrote:. Now in karmic terms, killing is unwholesome however I don't see a problem with buying meat from the supermarkets. It's going to be there anyway and it will either be bought by someone else or just thrown away.

Life feeds of life, that's also one of the factors that drove evolution. Sadly that's the way it is.
The meat in supermarkets is there because of the demand for meat. If people didn't want to buy and eat meat then animals wouldn't be bred and killed and pieces of them wouldn't be there on the meat shelves for customers to buy. Its a cop-out to say "Oh well I buy it because its already there" because you are contributing to that demand.

My non-Buddhist father ate chicken and then he saw what actually happened to chickens and how they were treated and then killed and he was so horrified he couldn't eat chicken again . Similarly someone else I know who was a meat eating Buddhist, went to a slaugherhouse for the meat trade and was so upset at what he saw that he never ate it again.


.
Last edited by Aloka on Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Aloka wrote:
clw_uk wrote:. Now in karmic terms, killing is unwholesome however I don't see a problem with buying meat from the supermarkets. It's going to be there anyway and it will either be bought by someone else or just thrown away.

Life feeds of life, that's also one of the factors that drove evolution. Sadly that's the way it is.
The meat in supermarkets is there because of the demand for meat. If people didn't want to buy and eat meat then animals wouldn't be bred and killed and pieces of them wouldn't be there on the meat shelves. Its a cop-out to say "Oh well I buy it because already there" because you are contributing to that demand.

My father ate chicken and then he saw what actually happened to chickens and how they were killed and was so horrified he couldn't eat them again and he wasn't even a vegetarian. Similarly someone else I know who was a meat eater, went to a slaugherhouse for the meat trade and never ate it again.


.

But the demand will always be there. You won't turn everyone vegetarian, that's too idealistic.


The best hope for animals is the lab grown meat that's being developed
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Aloka
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Aloka »

clw_uk wrote:
Aloka wrote:
clw_uk wrote:. Now in karmic terms, killing is unwholesome however I don't see a problem with buying meat from the supermarkets. It's going to be there anyway and it will either be bought by someone else or just thrown away.

Life feeds of life, that's also one of the factors that drove evolution. Sadly that's the way it is.
The meat in supermarkets is there because of the demand for meat. If people didn't want to buy and eat meat then animals wouldn't be bred and killed and pieces of them wouldn't be there on the meat shelves. Its a cop-out to say "Oh well I buy it because already there" because you are contributing to that demand.

My father ate chicken and then he saw what actually happened to chickens and how they were killed and was so horrified he couldn't eat them again and he wasn't even a vegetarian. Similarly someone else I know who was a meat eater, went to a slaugherhouse for the meat trade and never ate it again.


.

But the demand will always be there. You won't turn everyone vegetarian, that's too idealistic.


The best hope for animals is the lab grown meat that's being developed

I'm not trying to turn everyone vegetarian, Craig, I'm just putting forward some points in a debate.


:)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

I'm not trying to turn everyone vegetarian, Craig, I'm just putting forward some points in a debate.
I know :) im just saying there will always be a huge demand for meat, so it's not a cop-out to say it will be there regardless.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
beeblebrox
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by beeblebrox »

Ajhan Sumedho's experience with vegetarian diet:
===========
I found myself
aiming for the vegetarian dishes first so that I could
pass them out according to my own needs. It brought
up a really childish tendency in me. Then one day
another monk saw me doing this, so he grabbed the
vegetarian dish first and only gave me a little spoonful.
I was so angry when I saw that. I took this fermented
fish sauce, this really strong stuff and when I went past
his bowl, I splattered it all over his food! Fortunately,
we were forbidden to hit each other. This is an
absolute necessity for men — to have rules against
physical violence!
:)

Page 28

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/intui ... reness.pdf
I was trying to live up to an ideal of vegetarian purity,
and yet in the process having these really violent
feelings towards other monks. What’s this about? ItIntuitive Awareness 29
was a vindictive act to splatter all that strong chili
sauce with rotten fish in it over some monk’s food. It
was a violent act in order for me to keep a sense that
I’m a pure vegetarian. So I began to question whether
I wanted to make food into such a big deal in my life.
Was I wanting to live my life as a vegetarian or what?
Was that the main focus that I was aiming at? Just
contemplating this, I began to see the suffering I
created around my idealism. I noticed Luang Por
Chah certainly enjoyed his food and he had a joyful
presence. It wasn’t like an ascetic trip where you’re
eating nettle soup and rejecting the good bits; that’s
the other extreme.
Hi all,

I think these have more to do with Ven. Sumhedo's motivation with being a vegetarian, rather than making a choice in what to eat in itself... it's a red herring (or at least in the way these seemed to be posted).

What if a person's reason to be a vegetarian was sincere, and it showed in other areas of his life? Will that be OK? Do you think it's still right if some carnivores/omnivores criticize him for what he eats, or make fun of him?

If a vegetarian didn't react these in a negative way, what will you think? Do you think the non-vegetarian should persist with his taunting till the person cracks?

:anjali:
Last edited by beeblebrox on Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Alex123
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Alex123 »

lyndon taylor wrote:you're not eating wolves and foxes, are you????
No I am not eating them. But what I want people to keep in mind is that tigers, wolves, foxes, sharks, etc, do not treat their prey better than us. Perhaps in some way they cause more pain.

Chances are that chicken (not in a factory farm) one eats could have lived a better life than in the wild, and died not as painfully as in the wild.
Jhana4
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Jhana4 »

Animals have no choice in killing or how they kill animals. Human beings have that capacity. Human beings also kill far more animals than animals. I think over 8 - 9 billion land animals per year are killed for food. That is more than the human population of the planet. On top of keeping all of those animals alive in torturous conditions (something animals do not do ) in factory farms, that is a LOT of waste and pollution we are generating that is going to come back to haunt us, as well as our children.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Jhana4 wrote:Animals have no choice in killing or how they kill animals. Human beings have that capacity. Human beings also kill far more animals than animals. I think over 8 - 9 billion land animals per year are killed for food. That is more than the human population of the planet. On top of keeping all of those animals alive in torturous conditions (something animals do not do ) in factory farms, that is a LOT of waste and pollution we are generating that is going to come back to haunt us, as well as our children.

Some humans don't have a choice
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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