Dukha and Escape from It

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
HumbleThinker
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Dukha and Escape from It

Post by HumbleThinker »

I had a long string of ideas of problems typed up, but realized that I think I have the root of the problem. I love Buddhism, and think it's great. But I think I am stuck on the idea of why I should be seeking escape from dukha in the ultimate sense of attaining Nibbana. I understand why I should be disenchanted with things like form, sensuality, feelings, etc. (pulling from the Maha-dukkhakkhandha Sutta here), but I don't think I understand why the Buddha's solution of escaping the cycle of samsara is necessary. I don't undersand what is inherently wrong with remaining in samsara. Yeah we're all going to age, get sick, and die, but so what? As long as we are not attached to youth, health, and life, what is the big deal?

Additionally, (and this will probably contradict what I said before about being disenchanted), what is wrong with neither seeking pleasure nor avoiding pain, while enjoying the pleasures that come your way (ie. time with friends, etc) and accepting pains dispassionately (time being over or friends dying)? Am I trying to have my cake and eat it too in a position that is unsustainable? I guess the question boils down to: is there a way to enjoy something dispassionately or is that an oxymoron? If there is a way, then it goes back to my original question of what is the point of escaping samsara? Thanks for any help you can provide! :)
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IOW, take what I say with a grain of salt, for I likely know as little or less than you do.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Dukha and Escape from It

Post by Sam Vara »

Yeah we're all going to age, get sick, and die, but so what? As long as we are not attached to youth, health, and life, what is the big deal?
No big deal at all, but most people who are old or sick or dying find that they are very much more attached to those things than they previously thought possible.
santa100
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Re: Dukha and Escape from It

Post by santa100 »

Obviously there's different perspective depends on whether one was born a prince in one of those oil-riched Saudis royal families and never have to worry about getting a job, paying rents, bills, and all kinds of debts,etc. as opposed to being born a girl in those war-torn and famine stricken African regions subjected to bodily mutilation, rape, hunger and diseases every day. Since the law of impermanence doesn't discriminate anyone, as long as one decides to stay in samsara and continue to generate a mix bag of wholesome/unwholesome kamma, one will continue to recycle thru the 6 realms of existence, sometimes as a deva king who rarely ever experiences any kind of suffering, and sometimes as a hell dweller who's subjected all kinds of unimaginable suffering. That, imho, is the inherent danger of samsara..
chownah
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Re: Dukha and Escape from It

Post by chownah »

As long as you can stay disenchanted and not clinging.......and you continue to learn more about how experience manifests it seems from what the Buddha taught that you are pretty much guaranteed to escape samsara sooner or later so no need to worry about it.

On the other hand didn't the Buddha say that we should practice as if our hair was on fire? Guess this means he is saying we should not be complacent.........I wonder if there is a way somewhere between these two.
chownah
daverupa
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Re: Dukha and Escape from It

Post by daverupa »

chownah wrote:I wonder if there is a way somewhere between these two.
chownah
Such as a lute string tuned neither too taught nor too slack?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
HumbleThinker
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Re: Dukha and Escape from It

Post by HumbleThinker »

Sam Vara wrote:
Yeah we're all going to age, get sick, and die, but so what? As long as we are not attached to youth, health, and life, what is the big deal?
No big deal at all, but most people who are old or sick or dying find that they are very much more attached to those things than they previously thought possible.
Yeah, there certainly is a huge difference between saying it and understanding it. Hopefully when my time comes I will have developed the understanding that it is no big deal.
"I know that I know nothing" -Socrates

IOW, take what I say with a grain of salt, for I likely know as little or less than you do.
HumbleThinker
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Re: Dukha and Escape from It

Post by HumbleThinker »

santa100 wrote:Obviously there's different perspective depends on whether one was born a prince in one of those oil-riched Saudis royal families and never have to worry about getting a job, paying rents, bills, and all kinds of debts,etc. as opposed to being born a girl in those war-torn and famine stricken African regions subjected to bodily mutilation, rape, hunger and diseases every day. Since the law of impermanence doesn't discriminate anyone, as long as one decides to stay in samsara and continue to generate a mix bag of wholesome/unwholesome kamma, one will continue to recycle thru the 6 realms of existence, sometimes as a deva king who rarely ever experiences any kind of suffering, and sometimes as a hell dweller who's subjected all kinds of unimaginable suffering. That, imho, is the inherent danger of samsara..
Interesting thought. I've heard that humans are fortunate to live in the one realm that has the best, balance I guess is the right word, of pleasure and pain so that they have the best chance of being able to follow the Dhamma. Whereas a being in the higher realm will have more pleasure than he knows what to do with and a being in the lower realm will have more pain than he knows what to do with such that they will almost inevitably become attached to and distracted by these things to follow the Dhamma, a human generally is neither as joyous nor as painful as these beings and so will have a higher likelihood of being able to follow the Dhamma. At least, that's what I think I remember reading either in a sutta or a book about Buddhism.
"I know that I know nothing" -Socrates

IOW, take what I say with a grain of salt, for I likely know as little or less than you do.
HumbleThinker
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Re: Dukha and Escape from It

Post by HumbleThinker »

chownah wrote:As long as you can stay disenchanted and not clinging.......and you continue to learn more about how experience manifests it seems from what the Buddha taught that you are pretty much guaranteed to escape samsara sooner or later so no need to worry about it.
I'm fine with Nibbana being the inevitable end of the path, for being attached to either samsara or Nibbana seems wrong to me, but I guess I don't have the same sense of samvega that the Buddha had when he realized the inevitability of aging, sickness, and death. Perhaps I still find some meaning in life where he found none and would tell me to rid myself of through insight, and thus feel as I do. Because I suppose if I found no meaning in life, I would not find myself enjoying anything, even in a detached way. Additionally, I may be more affirmative in wanting to escape samsara.

I've heard that what we attach to at our deaths gives us a pretty big hint of what realm we will be reborn in, but I have no idea if this is even a Buddhist concept. For example, if you find yourself concerned about all the bad things you did in your life, then you probably will find yourself in Hell. Or if you wish you could have done more good, you may find yourself in a heavenly realm. But if you are attached to nothing, have no concerns about this life or the next, then you will have nowhere to call home, and thus will cease to rebirth in the same way that one who has zero attachments to a friend will not return to him.
"I know that I know nothing" -Socrates

IOW, take what I say with a grain of salt, for I likely know as little or less than you do.
Justsit
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Re: Dukha and Escape from It

Post by Justsit »

Have you ever experienced suffering (not pain, that is only one aspect of suffering)? How would you describe it?
HumbleThinker
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Re: Dukha and Escape from It

Post by HumbleThinker »

Justsit wrote:Have you ever experienced suffering (not pain, that is only one aspect of suffering)? How would you describe it?
Undesirable would probably be the best description. Whether it's the presence of pain (as you said not the pain itself), the additional suffering from addressing the pain in a heedless way (ie. that extra itchiness after scratching a mosquito bite), the unfulfilled expectation of something pleasurable, or the taking away of something pleasurable among other experiences, the best word I can think of is undesirable. Hope that answers your question.
"I know that I know nothing" -Socrates

IOW, take what I say with a grain of salt, for I likely know as little or less than you do.
Justsit
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Re: Dukha and Escape from It

Post by Justsit »

How about grief? Deep loss? Betrayal? Not talking mosquito bites.
dagon
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Re: Dukha and Escape from It

Post by dagon »

One of the problems with life is that towards the end all that was “good and pleasurable” in life comes back as a source of grief. Usually the more you have had the more you grieve.

Lets say you have had a particular pleasurable experience early in life you will spend most of you life trying to recapture that moment and then grieve for it all over again when you realize that life has past you by and you will never live that moment again. There is a saying in the east that “real pleasure is the absence of pain”

metta
paul
HumbleThinker
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Re: Dukha and Escape from It

Post by HumbleThinker »

Justsit wrote:How about grief? Deep loss? Betrayal? Not talking mosquito bites.
About the worse is loss of a friend due to an 18-wheeler accident, but I was not particularly grieved by the incident. I thought I would be and was a little confused why I wasn't, but no, I have not felt grief or deep loss.
"I know that I know nothing" -Socrates

IOW, take what I say with a grain of salt, for I likely know as little or less than you do.
HumbleThinker
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Re: Dukha and Escape from It

Post by HumbleThinker »

dagon wrote:One of the problems with life is that towards the end all that was “good and pleasurable” in life comes back as a source of grief. Usually the more you have had the more you grieve.

Lets say you have had a particular pleasurable experience early in life you will spend most of you life trying to recapture that moment and then grieve for it all over again when you realize that life has past you by and you will never live that moment again. There is a saying in the east that “real pleasure is the absence of pain”

metta
paul
Hmmm interesting. The cliche at least is that your life flashes before your eyes and all that jazz, so it would be very conceivable that some pleasures may reap bad kamma at the time of death in the form of this kind of regret.
"I know that I know nothing" -Socrates

IOW, take what I say with a grain of salt, for I likely know as little or less than you do.
Justsit
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Re: Dukha and Escape from It

Post by Justsit »

There is a difference between knowing about something and knowing it. A teacher once described it like this: A scientist can know all about a tarantula, it's classification, physiology, habits, etc. But the person who awakens to find a tarantula crawling up her arm knows "tarantula."
So, right now it sounds like you know about suffering, and find it merely undesirable, no big deal. Perhaps your understanding of the truly terrible nature of samsara will change when you have experienced it more thoroughly.
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