The monk's rule of never sharing experiences... a cover up?

[balive]

I visited a friend who recently became a monk, and would not share with me about how is meditation was going.
I'd forgot... It's against the rules.

Then I recently read this, and found it to be a very interesting take on this rule:

"... he speaks openly about his personal experiences with meditative absorption (jhana). The orthodox monastic community believes this is a serious violation of the monastic code (Vinaya)... it is all too easy for a mediocre monk, nun, priest, minister or lay meditation teacher to hide behind these monastic rules that came centuries after the Buddha had left this Earth, and seem to have been instituted only to favour the mediocre non-contemplative community (sangha). After all, the record indicates the Buddha spoke openly about his experiences, and he often asked his students to speak openly about theirs as well."

What do you think?

[cooran]

Please give a link to your quote above.

With metta
Chris

[Aloof]

Please give a link to your quote above.

With metta
Chris

Why quote only? Why not logic as well.
What is the logic behind hiding the achievements?
If the achievement is truth of the sayer, he and listener both gain.
Sayer strengthens the WISDOM of the TRUTH, and a listener gains the knowledge.

[cooran]

So you can't?

With metta,
Chris

[Aloof]

So you can't?

With metta,
Chris

Both Balive and me Aloof can not get you the quotes in support. We both are meditation
practioners and not experts of Suttas or quotes.
Balive am I right about this view with you?

[pilgrim]

Monks are allowed to speak of their meditative attainments to other monks, but not to lay people. There are many good reasons for this, one of them being compassion for lesser experienced monks, who otherwise would not receive much food for dana.

But even when speak of this they do so with great care as false claims of spiritual development is a parajika offence.

[purple planet]

One reason not to tell about meditation experience is not to make people "want" to get cretin experiences - if i tell someone i saw colors in meditation - and he will try to see colors he probably wont be able to because he needs to have a "clear" and "present" mind so if instead of sitting in meditation without any cravings - he craves to see colors it will ruin his entire meditation

[manas]

What is the logic behind hiding the achievements?
If the achievement is truth of the sayer, he and listener both gain.
Sayer strengthens the WISDOM of the TRUTH, and a listener gains the knowledge.

But what if the sayer has overestimated their achievement, and then has the embarrassing need to retract what they had previously said? And, what if by then, the lay person they initially told of their achievement, has gone off and told all of their friends, or even half the village? Wouldn't it be easier if the monk had just kept the achievement to himself, and allowed layfolk to gauge his spiritual advancement through his behaviour and ability to inspire others in the Dhamma, rather than any self-proclaimed attainment?

[Kumara]

I visited a friend who recently became a monk, and would not share with me about how is meditation was going.
I'd forgot... It's against the rules.

Actually it's okay for a monk to share about his practice, so long as he keeps it within the monastic rules. In this case, it's Pacittiya 8:

Should any bhikkhu report (his own) superior human state, when it is factual, to an unordained person, it is to be confessed.
... The meaning of superior human state is discussed at length under Pr 4. In brief, it covers (a) jhana, (b) the cognitive powers that can arise as its result, and (c) the transcendent attainments. (Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... h08-1.html)

That's for the case of a factual claim. If he make a personal claim of an attainment that he knows it's not true, it's a parajika offence, which is an "irremediable offences that automatically and irrevocably end the bhikkhu-life."

But of course a monk could also use these rules as a means to encourage lay people to make speculations about his attainments.

[Aloof]

What is the logic behind hiding the achievements?
If the achievement is truth of the sayer, he and listener both gain.
Sayer strengthens the WISDOM of the TRUTH, and a listener gains the knowledge.

But what if the sayer has overestimated their achievement, and then has the embarrassing need to retract what they had previously said? And, what if by then, the lay person they initially told of their achievement, has gone off and told all of their friends, or even half the village? Wouldn't it be easier if the monk had just kept the achievement to himself, and allowed layfolk to gauge his spiritual advancement through his behaviour and ability to inspire others in the Dhamma, rather than any self-proclaimed attainment?

I would prefer to come out and test my Truth. If my Truth is not absolute, i would
prefer to suffer, and gain wisdom out of suffering and move ahead.

Others are always gauging from all sides of my existence.And that is also a good
feed back.

[Aloof]

But even when speak of this they do so with great care as false claims of spiritual development is a parajika offence.

Who is there to note my Parajikta offence if any.
My inner self only knows. And if it is an offence,
I better suffer and relearn, rather then timidly hide
myself.

Parajikta (wisdom) is opposite of ignorance.
And ignorance is suffering . Better come out of it fast.

[dhammapal]

Monks are allowed to speak of their meditative attainments to other monks, but not to lay people. There are many good reasons for this, one of them being compassion for lesser experienced monks, who otherwise would not receive much food for dana.

But even when speak of this they do so with great care as false claims of spiritual development is a parajika offence.

I think that monks can exploit their devotees by letting them think that they might be arahants.

With metta / dhammapal.

[Jhana4]

I visited a friend who recently became a monk, and would not share with me about how is meditation was going.
I'd forgot... It's against the rules.

Then I recently read this, and found it to be a very interesting take on this rule:

"... he speaks openly about his personal experiences with meditative absorption (jhana). The orthodox monastic community believes this is a serious violation of the monastic code (Vinaya)... it is all too easy for a mediocre monk, nun, priest, minister or lay meditation teacher to hide behind these monastic rules that came centuries after the Buddha had left this Earth, and seem to have been instituted only to favour the mediocre non-contemplative community (sangha). After all, the record indicates the Buddha spoke openly about his experiences, and he often asked his students to speak openly about theirs as well."

What do you think?

I heard about the rule that a monk ( or nun ) could not speak of his or her attainments. I did not know that it came after the Buddha's death. I always thought it was a good idea as it would prevent ego games and cult followings. I don't think it is needed to cover up mediocre monks, as they don't need covering up. In some Asian countries monks are treated like celebrities just for being monks regardless of whether or not they meditate.

[Jhana4]

FWIW I Googled on a string from the OP's quote in his/her OP.

I only found one hit at:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/pop_printe ... IC_ID=2421

Sadly for all his achievements he appears to - how can I put this politely? - 'not entirely fit the general understanding of modest and self-unassuming' that is the case with high-level Buddhist practitioners (think HHDL eg). He is only too anxious to promote his achievements:

:About Jhanananda
Sotapanna (stream winner) Jhanananda (Jeffrey S. Brooks) is a self-ordained Western Buddhist monk in the Great Western Vehicle...

He has, however, been ostracized from the lay and monastic Buddhist community because he speaks openly about his personal experiences with meditative absorption (jhana/kundalini). The orthodox monastic community believes this is a serious violation of the monastic code (Vinaya). Jhanananda believes it is all too easy for a mediocre monk, nun, priest, minister or lay meditation teacher to hide behind these monastic rules that came centuries after the Buddha had left this Earth, and seem to have been instituted only to favor the mediocre non-contemplative community (sangha)...

In addition to acquiring and sustaining the various spiritual attainments (phala), such as Out-Of-Body (OOB) skills, various charismatic phenomena including clairvoyance and clairaudience, the tranquility and equanimity of “No Mind,” and the 8 meditative absorption states (jhanas) he has also mastered many of the meditation practices (magga) of these contemplative traditions.

[Kumara]

But even when speak of this they do so with great care as false claims of spiritual development is a parajika offence.

Who is there to note my Parajikta offence if any.
My inner self only knows. And if it is an offence,
I better suffer and relearn, rather then timidly hide
myself.

Parajikta (wisdom) is opposite of ignorance.
And ignorance is suffering . Better come out of it fast.

Parajikta means wisdom?