Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

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Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Postby Kumara » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:22 am

In Bhikkhu Bodhi's book on N8P, he says that "with a certain degree of progress all eight factors can be present simultaneously". Is that just his view or is there a sutta reference on that?
Last edited by Kumara on Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reference for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneous

Postby cooran » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:33 am

Could you tell us what page number the statement is on?

With metta,
Chris
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Re: Reference for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneous

Postby Kumara » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:13 am

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Re: Reference for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneous

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:29 am

The specific quote is in the first paragraph of Chapter 2: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... d.html#ch2

:anjali:
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Postby santa100 » Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:57 pm

Kumara wrote:In Bhikkhu Bodhi's book on N8P, he says that "with a certain degree of progress all eight factors can be present simultaneously". Is that just his view or is there a sutta reference on that?


It's also mentioned in MN 149 where the development was done in stages. From Ven. Bodhi's note (based on the Commentary), the simultaneous arising only emerges during the "supramundane" stage..

The view of a person such as this is right view. His intention is right intention, his effort is right effort, his mindfulness is right mindfulness, his concentration is right concentration. But his bodily action, his verbal action, and his livelihood have already been well purified earlier. Thus this Noble Eightfold Path comes to fulfilment in him by development ~~ http://palicanon.org/index.php/sutta-pi ... xfold-base ~~


And footnote:
The eight factors of the path mentioned here seem to pertain to the preliminary or mundane portion of the path. MṬ identifies them with the factors possessed by a person at the highest level of insight development, immediately prior to the emergence of the supramundane path. In this stage only the former five path factors are actively operative, the three factors of the morality group having been purified prior to the undertaking of insight meditation. But when the supramundane path arises, all eight factors occur simultaneously, the three factors of the morality group exercising the function of eradicating the defilements responsible for moral transgression in speech, action, and livelihood.
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Postby minh-khong » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:31 pm

This is kind'a described in the Abhidharma on the cetasikas during meditation states. There is a relevant discussion here - http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php?t100.html
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Postby Kumara » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:57 am

santa100 wrote:
Kumara wrote:In Bhikkhu Bodhi's book on N8P, he says that "with a certain degree of progress all eight factors can be present simultaneously". Is that just his view or is there a sutta reference on that?


It's also mentioned in MN 149 where the development was done in stages.

I don't see how it's saying that development is done in stages, but the quote does satisfy my question. Thank you.
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Postby santa100 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:45 pm

Kumara wrote:I don't see how it's saying that development is done in stages, but the quote does satisfy my question. Thank you.


You're welcome. The stage part was highlighted below..

sutta: The view of a person such as this is right view. His intention is right intention, his effort is right effort, his mindfulness is right mindfulness, his concentration is right concentration. But his bodily action, his verbal action, and his livelihood have already been well purified earlier. Thus this Noble Eightfold Path comes to fulfilment in him by development


comment: The eight factors of the path mentioned here seem to pertain to the preliminary or mundane portion of the path. MṬ identifies them with the factors possessed by a person at the highest level of insight development, immediately prior to the emergence of the supramundane path. In this stage only the former five path factors are actively operative, the three factors of the morality group having been purified prior to the undertaking of insight meditation. But when the supramundane path arises, all eight factors occur simultaneously, the three factors of the morality group exercising the function of eradicating the defilements responsible for moral transgression in speech, action, and livelihood.
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Postby Kumara » Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:21 am

My purpose to start this topic is already achieved. But now a new thing came up.

Going by this sutta, samma samadhi (which is usually defined as the 4 jhanas) is happening together with other factors. It contradicts the Theravadin notion that one needs to emerge from the jhanas to practice satipatthana.
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Postby robertk » Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:41 am

while the jhanas are one type of sammasamadhi, the type of sammasamadhi leading to magga is different.
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Postby Kumara » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:04 am

robertk wrote:while the jhanas are one type of sammasamadhi, the type of sammasamadhi leading to magga is different.

Can you substantiate that with sutta reference?
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Postby santa100 » Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:31 pm

Kumara wrote:Going by this sutta, samma samadhi (which is usually defined as the 4 jhanas) is happening together with other factors. It contradicts the Theravadin notion that one needs to emerge from the jhanas to practice satipatthana


From Ven. Bodhi's observation in his "In the Buddha's Words":
The commentarial method of explanation stipulates that the meditator emerges from the jhana attainment and practices insight contemplation with a mind made sharp and supple by the jhana. However, the suttas themselves say nothing about emerging from the jhana. If one reads the suttas alone, without the commentaries, it seems as if the meditator examines the factors within the jhana itself.
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Postby SarathW » Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:53 am

The way I understand you emerge only from 8th and the 9th.
Please see the following link. :)
===========================

In 8th and 9th jhana the mind is shut down. Only after emerging the mind can ferret things out, turns away and incline towards nibbana.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=18115#p255324
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Postby robertk » Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:00 am

only the last type of samadhi leads out if samsara

AN 4.41 PTS: A ii 44
Samadhi Sutta: Concentration
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1997–2013
"Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now.

"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision.

"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.

"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

"These are the four developments of concentration.

"And it was in connection with this that I stated in Punnaka's Question in the Way to the Far Shore [Sn 5.3]:


'He who has fathomed
the far & near in the world,
for whom there is nothing
perturbing in the world —
his vices evaporated,
undesiring, untroubled,
at peace —
he, I tell you, has crossed over birth
aging.'"
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Postby Kumara » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:50 am

robertk wrote:only the last type of samadhi leads out if samsara

AN 4.41 PTS: A ii 44
Samadhi Sutta: Concentration
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1997–2013
"Monks, these are the four developments of concentration....

Assuming that this is meant to answer my question to your saying that "while the jhanas are one type of sammasamadhi, the type of sammasamadhi leading to magga is different," another question arises for me: If the 4 jhanas is not "the type of sammasamadhi leading to magga", why is it mentioned in the Noble Eightfold Path?
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Postby fifthson » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:13 am

If the 4 jhanas is not "the type of sammasamadhi leading to magga", why is it mentioned in the Noble Eightfold Path?

sammasamadhi (right concentration), the 4 jhanas is also the right concentration. However, attainment of the jhanas alone is mainly the concentration which is not totally eradicate the defilement, jpanas is extinction (cessation of defilements) by suppression.


jhanas is samasamadhi.
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Postby Kumara » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:06 am

fifthson wrote:sammasamadhi (right concentration), the 4 jhanas is also the right concentration. However, attainment of the jhanas alone is mainly the concentration which is not totally eradicate the defilement, jpanas is extinction (cessation of defilements) by suppression.

jhanas is samasamadhi.

I don't see how that answers the question. All other factors on their own also don't totally eradicate the defilements, right?
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Postby fifthson » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:16 am

All the eight must happened together to do so.
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Postby Kumara » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:42 am

fifthson wrote:All the eight must happened together to do so.

In saying that, you're also saying that one of the 4 jhanas must be happening to totally eradicate the defilements, right?
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Postby fifthson » Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:24 pm

There are two types of Arahants - one who attained Arahantship through vipassana (then he or she had no need to gain jahna for the enlightenment), and the one who attained the enlightenment started with samadhi, then vipassana.

So if that Arahant (or the lower level of attainment) is the latter then he or she had the jahna. Jhana is not the requirement for arahantship. The word sammasamadhi=right concentration, vipassana that leads to arahantship is also sammasamadhi by itself (vipassana has no need to have right concentration to the level that gain one of the four jahna).
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