Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by lyndon taylor »

chownah wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:Khemo Sutta: Khemaka
The Ven. Khemaka is indirectly claiming to be a "non-returner" (anaagaamii). To lay claim, even truthfully, to higher attainments is an offense. To do so, knowing the claim would be false, would be a paaraajika offense involving irrevocable expulsion from the Sangha.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html
I think this is for monks....I think Tachibana is not a monk.
chownah
The quote refers to monks, but lay people are no more supposed to talk about attainments, real or imagined any more than actual monk are not allowed. If you were to talk privately to a monk or friend about your "attainment" it may not be such a sin, but announcing it to the world, may be possible but highly not recommended, acoording to the teachings.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
Tachibana
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by Tachibana »

Indeed I'm not a monk, you'd know this already if you had read my first post.

Not being allowed to speak about attainments doesn't mean not being able to speak about attainments.

It has been 2 almost years since I discovered the Dhamma, I'll say it franckly : those who utter that time is needed to achieve the noble fruits are the ones who haven't achieved anything yet because of their wrong practice.

Throughout my hole practice I'd been trying to put my emotions aside by the mean of the 8 precepts, so how could I even get insight to my emotions ? Instead I only developped some kind of neurosis along with headaches due to my metaphysical theories.

Eventually I understood that I was doing it the wrong way so I came back to the basics : the 5 precepts and the core of the Dhamma. It also took some time, but "I" became able to reach the fruit when, in one single mental event, I was able to understand the core of the Dhamma by the mean of insight to my strong emotions and to their own cause.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by tiltbillings »

Tachibana wrote:
It has been 2 almost years since I discovered the Dhamma, I'll say it franckly : those who utter that time is needed to achieve the noble fruits are the ones who haven't achieved anything yet because of their wrong practice.
This is where you start disqualifying yourself here. Unless you are claiming iddhis, you do not know what others have achieved. And, of course, who knows what you have achieved? The problem with such self promotion is that it is self promotion. As pointed out, you do yourself no favors by such self-credentialing as the first thing it is you say on a forum. Maybe what you say is true, but quite frankly, it is far better shown that claimed.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
dagon
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by dagon »

Tachibana wrote:Indeed I'm not a monk, you'd know this already if you had read my first post.

Not being allowed to speak about attainments doesn't mean not being able to speak about attainments.

It has been 2 almost years since I discovered the Dhamma, I'll say it franckly : those who utter that time is needed to achieve the noble fruits are the ones who haven't achieved anything yet because of their wrong practice.

Throughout my hole practice I'd been trying to put my emotions aside by the mean of the 8 precepts, so how could I even get insight to my emotions ? Instead I only developped some kind of neurosis along with headaches due to my metaphysical theories.

Eventually I understood that I was doing it the wrong way so I came back to the basics : the 5 precepts and the core of the Dhamma. It also took some time, but "I" became able to reach the fruit when, in one single mental event, I was able to understand the core of the Dhamma by the mean of insight to my strong emotions and to their own cause.
enough said

metta
paul
Tachibana
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by Tachibana »

tiltbillings wrote:
Tachibana wrote:
It has been 2 almost years since I discovered the Dhamma, I'll say it franckly : those who utter that time is needed to achieve the noble fruits are the ones who haven't achieved anything yet because of their wrong practice.
This is where you start disqualifying yourself here. Unless you are claiming iddhis, you do not know what others have achieved. And, of course, who knows what you have achieved? The problem with such self promotion is that it is self promotion. As pointed out, you do yourself no favors by such self-credentialing as the first thing it is you say on a forum. Maybe what you say is true, but quite frankly, it is far better shown that claimed.

What I was trying to say is that the Fruit arises immediately after the Path... so if your practice didn't bear any Fruit yet it means that you're not "walking" the Path, and so your practice is wrong.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by tiltbillings »

Tachibana wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Tachibana wrote:
It has been 2 almost years since I discovered the Dhamma, I'll say it franckly : those who utter that time is needed to achieve the noble fruits are the ones who haven't achieved anything yet because of their wrong practice.
This is where you start disqualifying yourself here. Unless you are claiming iddhis, you do not know what others have achieved. And, of course, who knows what you have achieved? The problem with such self promotion is that it is self promotion. As pointed out, you do yourself no favors by such self-credentialing as the first thing it is you say on a forum. Maybe what you say is true, but quite frankly, it is far better shown that claimed.

What I was trying to say is that the Fruit arises immediately after the Path... so if your practice didn't bear any Fruit yet it means that you're not "walking" the Path, and so your practice is wrong.
And what sort of time frame are we looking at here for one's practice to bear fruit?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Tachibana
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by Tachibana »

Do you know about the 17 thoughts moments ?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... html#citta

It's not written in this AbhiDhamma version, but when you're about to reach enlightenment, the Path is the 5th Javana moment and 2 or 3 (depending on your insight) Fruits will follow as the 6th and 7th javana moment.

So theoratically, you'll get a Fruit about less than 0.1s after having "walked" the Path.

What I'm saying is that if you need time, it means you need to time to reach the Path, and so your practice is "wrong".
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tiltbillings
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by tiltbillings »

Tachibana wrote:Do you know about the 17 thoughts moments ?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... html#citta

It's not written in this AbhiDhamma version, but when you're about to reach enlightenment, the Path is the 5th Javana moment and 2 or 3 (depending on your insight) Fruits will follow as the 6th and 7th javana moment.

So theoratically, you'll get a Fruit about less than 0.1s after having "walked" the Path.

What I'm saying is that if you need time, it means you need to time to reach the Path, and so your practice is "wrong".
Now, you are being less than clear. So, according to you, if it is right path, then one should "get Fruit" "about less than 0.1s" after starting.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Tachibana
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by Tachibana »

Well I could give a link of the AbhiDhamma version I took this from, but I'm not sure that you understand French...

Anyway, the Fruit arises immediately after having reached the Path, that's the very basis of causality, well you already know that even Arahants are subject to cause and effect, don't you ?

If they weren't subject to causality, then no realization would be possible.
Last edited by Tachibana on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by tiltbillings »

Tachibana wrote:Well I could give a link of the AbhiDhamma version I took this from, but I'm not sure that you understand French...

Anyway, the Fruit arises immediately after having reached the Path, that's the very basis of causality, well you already know that even Arahants are subject to cause and effect, don't you ?

If they weren't subject to causality, then no realization would be possible.
The question is, of course, how should it take to reach the Path?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Tachibana
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by Tachibana »

The Fruit (the lack of craving) results from the Path (the elimination of craving), the Path results from insight (to the 4 nobles truths), insight results from vipassanaa (which is paying attention to dukkha).

Now I'm going to reiterate what I previously said : if you don't pay attention to your own emotions (suffering from lost etc), you'll never realize any Fruit.

The greater your suffering is, the greater your will to end it is, and so the greater your concentration will be.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by tiltbillings »

Tachibana wrote:The Fruit (the lack of craving) results from the Path (the elimination of craving), the Path results from insight (to the 4 nobles truths), insight results from vipassanaa (which is paying attention to dukkha).

Now I'm going to reiterate what I previously said : if you don't pay attention to your own emotions (suffering from lost etc), you'll never realize any Fruit.

The greater your suffering is, the greater your will to end it is, and so the greater your concentration will be.
And, no matter how great the drive, might it still not take some time to reach the levels of Fruit and Path?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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lyndon taylor
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by lyndon taylor »

I'm going to step in here and recommend a good psychiatrist, I know just the path you're on, from personal experience, and it involves psychosis, and often ends in hospitalization. Seeing a doctor now will help you stay out of hospital and will not make you lose you're revelation, If you don't get help and end up in the hospital; by the time they're done with you you won't remember any of this, seriously get some help. IMHO
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
Tachibana
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by Tachibana »

I have to warn you, I've found the cause of most of the fails in vipassanaa practice :

If suffering isn't great enough, the will to end it will be weak, and so there'll be no concentration.
If suffering is too great, the will to end it will be strong, and so concentration will be correct.

However, when concentration arises, the previous thoughts are stilled, and so it is impossible to remember the Dhamma while practicing true vipassanaa.

So how did I succeed ?
As I said, the anime's rules are very similar to the samsaraa's rules.
So the "deletion" of the protagonist I was attached to reminded me of nibbaana.

"her nibbaana was the cause of my suffering" : this is what I understood.
"she'll never come back, so I must end up sadness"
"I have 3 options : either I forget her, either I just keep her in my mind, either I realize nibbaana"

Whereas the 1st two options are ultimately useless, the 3rd option rouse because I precisely though of nibbaana earlier.

"nibbaana is the highest peace", "nibbaana" is the lack of craving".

And so the Fruit followed the Path, which itself followed insight.

Insight is not the Path, insight is what leads us to the Path.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by tiltbillings »

Tachibana wrote:I have to warn you, . . .
Interesting, however, you have not addressed my question.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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