Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Theravāda in the 21st century - modern applications of ancient wisdom

Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby Tachibana » Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:18 pm

Hello everyone, welcome to my topic "Producing one of the 4 noble fruits [in our contemporary world] is possible".

So I'm going to describe my experience, which led me to the Sakadaagaami's fruit. It's pretty easy to understand why a lay buddhist like me coudn't realize the Arahant's fruit immediately : our contemporary society is based on mass consumption, which is itself based on clinging... well you already know all of this so let's start with the relevant part of this post.

Warning :
I've got to say that if my "partial enlightenment" wasn't about luck, it might be due to a wish "I" made in a previous life.
You may not believe me, but please don't laugh at me... at least for your own kamma.



So, one of my feature is that I thouroughly know the 3 baskets, especially the Suttanta and the AbhiDhamma.
Also, as a puthujjana student I used to spend my time on Japan culture, u know, manga and anime.

I was wandering for some time and I decided to watch another anime.
It's name is "Angel Beats!".
It is about students reborn in an after-death world where they're supposed to put an end to their regrets, so these very regrets are what trapped them in this world.

Looks just like the samsaraa, right ?

While I was watching this anime, I really got attached to one of the student, her name is "Kanade".
When she finally put an end to her regrets, she was meant to be "deleted", and so she disappeared.

Now begins the interesting part.

Putting an end to regrets and then disappear : I though about Nibbaana.
I really got attached to her and she got deleted : I felt a deep sadness.

The fact is she would've wanted to stay with another student in this after-death world, indeed they can't be deleted unless they've no regrets so their lives would have been (almost) perfect. So she disappeared with new fresh regrets, making thus my sadness grow...

Sadness, as any other kind of suffering, is what steers us to find a way to end it.
Therefore, the greater your pain is, the greater your will to end it will be.

The inch is that I "became" a Sotaapana when Kanade disappeared : never again to take what is impermanent for what is permanent, I already had no wrong views except the previous one and my faith was complete since the Dhamma was my only solution to end up sadness (the Dhamma immediately came to my mind because her disappearance reminded me of nibbaana).

In the mean time I got a direct experience of the 12 nidana : in "Angel Beats!" the end of regrets brings about the end of existence, just like the end of kammic activities brings about the end of material form (just have a look to the AbhiDhamma).

Thus I finally "became" a Sakadaagaami when I understood that dukkha is the result of craving.

I have to admit that I would've never realized any fruit if there were no similarities between the anime's rules and the samsaraa's rules : "deletion" reminded me about nibbaana, nibbaana reminded me about causality, causality reminded me about "regrets", "Kanade's regrets when she got deleted" kept making me sad... and so on until I realized the Sakadaagaami fruit (which is the weakening of craving and hatred).

You can not get any Ariyaa's fruit if you live without painful feelings, the Buddha already said this while he was talking about the Deva's probability to "become" an Ariyaa.



Hope you enjoyed reading, now you know that any kind of painful experience may generate a fruit if you keep reminding the core of the Dhamma (3 characteristics, 4 noble truths, 12 nidana and nibbaana).
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:22 pm

Wow! I guess I need to make a trip to my local video store.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby reflection » Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:40 pm

Indeed tilt.

If only they had television in the time of the Buddha he wouldn't have had to go through his entire search and all that trouble of meditation and living virtuously and such.


More seriously though, Tachibana please speak to a Buddhist nun/monk/teacher about it.
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby Tachibana » Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:52 pm

I apologize if you find any syntaxic error in my previous post, I'm a foreign student so my English level isn't so high.

I've to say I'm really amazed that I did realize what Kanade, the protagonist, also realized : a half-hearted Fruit .

What used to make me so sad became later what freed me.
From what I can tell, even if I may still be clinging to sweetness, I "became" asexual.

My answer to the previous post is the following one : I already talked to a monk and to an AbhiDhamma knower... and they both have no doubts about my Path.
When I produced the Sakadaagaami's fruit I didn't see any hoarding that would've displayed "Congrats, you are now an Ariyaa !", I just noticed the evidence : craving and thus hatred have been lessened, my thoughts are almost free from them, thus I knew "I" became a Sakadaagaami.

I've already practiced the ruupa-jhaana : I can actually feel pain and pleasure, so I'm not feeling equanimity.
Also, it's not rapture born from seclusion, it's just peace born from the Sakadaagaami's path.

"I" don't feel the way as before.
Last edited by Tachibana on Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:05 pm

There is something to be said for Dhamma without credentials.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:23 pm

One of the key attributes of a arya or a sotapanna, is they don't tell other people they are one, they let others say it about them, claiming attainments like enlightenment is pretty much forbidden in the teaching, althought the Buddha proclaimed his, perhaps because he was the first. the main reasons for this is proclaiming attainments is an egotistical thing to do and destroying the aggregate based self or ego is one of our goals, add to that the possibility that you may not really be enlightened, there is the element that you might be deceiving others as with your self, this is taught to be really bad karma. Generally in Buddhism today, when a noted teacher comes out and claims to be enlightened, you can pretty much assume he isn't, because if he was he wouldn't be telling you. At least that's what I have been taught, forgive me if some therevadans have been taught differently, I stand to be corrected.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby Tachibana » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:35 pm

The Buddha never said such a statement as yours, at the begining he was an enlightened one amongst the unenlightened ones, so he began to preach the Dhamma he just discovered. I'm not preaching a Dhamma I just discovered, I'm only describing the circumstances that made me able to truly understand the Dhamma.

I'd also like to say this : the Theravaada buddhists don't even agree inward their own teachings, so do you realize the benefits of an enlightened one (even a Sotaapana) to the buddhist community if he/she describes his/her own enlightenment ?

If you try to ignore your own emotions, you'll never be able to practice vipassanaa.
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby reflection » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:48 pm

FALSELY ASSUMING THE FRUITS OF SOTĀPANNA

We have to keep on guard. Sometimes when the mind is luminous and bright we think we see it all totally clearly. Maybe we will think, "Hey, now I am a sotapanna! I've been watching over the mind and I'm free of sensual craving and there are only minimal thoughts arising."

There are some centres where the students go to ask about their meditation and the teacher will approve, saying, "The mind in this state has reached the level of sakadagami." There are a lot of these places.

There was once a layman who was practicing in the forest tradition. When he meditated he couldn't get any peace at all. So he went and visited another teacher who taught, instructed and guided him in the practice. At first this man couldn't even sit still for one hour, but when he went and sat with this other teacher he could sit six or seven hours, maybe even all night.

After that, this layman was pleased with the results and went to consult this teacher who declared that the layman had seen the Dhamma. From then on he thought he was an ariya-puggala. He couldn't restrain himself from boasting about it. Wherever he went he would loudly broadcast to others that he knew and saw, that he had the Dhamma firmly in his heart. But it was merely on the level of sanna (memory).

Later this man, with the help of one of Luang Pu Mun's disciples, was able to correct this view and backed off from his position. With a view that has become firmly ingrained, it's hard to straighten out. It's hard, but it's not beyond the capacity of some teachers.

This is the very reason Luang Pu Chah would never answer any questions like this and say, "This monk is at this level, this monk is at that level." He would never say what level of attainment someone had achieved. He would always teach about those things with wisdom. He would say that it's paccattam - one knows and experiences for oneself.

Sometimes Luang Pu Chah would teach using similes. Some monks would say, "This monk is an arahant, he's this and that, he has no sexual craving and he has no more wanting or liking for anything." Then they would go and ask Luang Pu Chah. He would say, "If a frog stays down in a hole for many months, does that make it an arahant? Is it really an arahant now?" That's how he would answer, enabling us to contemplate and understand the matter clearly.

It's wrong to jump to conclusions when special experiences arise from the practice and we label and interpret them as an attainment of one level or another. This is the reason a lot of delusion arises. In some monasteries there are many "sotapannas" and "sakadagamis," but as time passes they all seem to disappear. We see this in some places.

But in our Wat Nong Pah Pong lineage, those who have practiced well don't talk about levels of achievement, because those that have achieved know for themselves. They understand the various ways and methods of practice. Luang Pu Chah emphasised this a lot."

http://www.watmarpjan.org/en/pdf/en-SOTA-LOW.pdf


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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby fivebells » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:03 pm

I thought I got first path while watching the most recent Batman movie, almost immediately after getting back from a meditation retreat. That turned out not to be the case, though.
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:06 pm

Khemo Sutta: Khemaka
The Ven. Khemaka is indirectly claiming to be a "non-returner" (anaagaamii). To lay claim, even truthfully, to higher attainments is an offense. To do so, knowing the claim would be false, would be a paaraajika offense involving irrevocable expulsion from the Sangha.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby reflection » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:15 pm

fivebells wrote:I thought I got first path while watching the most recent Batman movie, almost immediately after getting back from a meditation retreat. That turned out not to be the case, though.

:lol:
With all these televisions the whole world would be enlightened by now.
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby Ben » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:18 am

fivebells wrote:I thought I got first path while watching the most recent Batman movie,


Man, you should have demanded a refund!
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby chownah » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:12 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Khemo Sutta: Khemaka
The Ven. Khemaka is indirectly claiming to be a "non-returner" (anaagaamii). To lay claim, even truthfully, to higher attainments is an offense. To do so, knowing the claim would be false, would be a paaraajika offense involving irrevocable expulsion from the Sangha.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html

I think this is for monks....I think Tachibana is not a monk.
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:14 am

Is sarcasm and sniggering skilful speech?

:/
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby manas » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:07 am

Hi Tachibana

don't take offense, but if case you have not already noticed, it isn't really 'the done thing' to suddenly announce a higher attainment on a Buddhist Forum one has just joined, to relative strangers. It's not that you have done anything wrong, rather it's a sort of unspoken etiquette here, do you know what I mean?

I will be honest with you: it sounds to me like you have had a very emotionally striking experience that has stirred something in you, and that you now feel more convinced of the Dhamma as a result, but have overestimated. That can happen to any of us. So, I would be cautious about interpreting it as a Noble attainment too quickly. After all, if just to become a sotapanna one must usually strive with quite a bit of energy and commitment, how much more challenging would it be to attain sakadagami? Practitioners spend entire lives in monasteries, secluded, abstaining from sensual pleasures, meditating much, renouncing so much that we layfolk habitually enjoy, just to experience the Noble attainments. I agree that they are attainable in this day and age, and even for us layfolk as well (if we apply ourselves diligently enough), but I do not think they are quite that easily stumbled upon.

kind regards
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby lyndon taylor » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:16 am

chownah wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:Khemo Sutta: Khemaka
The Ven. Khemaka is indirectly claiming to be a "non-returner" (anaagaamii). To lay claim, even truthfully, to higher attainments is an offense. To do so, knowing the claim would be false, would be a paaraajika offense involving irrevocable expulsion from the Sangha.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html

I think this is for monks....I think Tachibana is not a monk.
chownah


The quote refers to monks, but lay people are no more supposed to talk about attainments, real or imagined any more than actual monk are not allowed. If you were to talk privately to a monk or friend about your "attainment" it may not be such a sin, but announcing it to the world, may be possible but highly not recommended, acoording to the teachings.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby Tachibana » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:51 am

Indeed I'm not a monk, you'd know this already if you had read my first post.

Not being allowed to speak about attainments doesn't mean not being able to speak about attainments.

It has been 2 almost years since I discovered the Dhamma, I'll say it franckly : those who utter that time is needed to achieve the noble fruits are the ones who haven't achieved anything yet because of their wrong practice.

Throughout my hole practice I'd been trying to put my emotions aside by the mean of the 8 precepts, so how could I even get insight to my emotions ? Instead I only developped some kind of neurosis along with headaches due to my metaphysical theories.

Eventually I understood that I was doing it the wrong way so I came back to the basics : the 5 precepts and the core of the Dhamma. It also took some time, but "I" became able to reach the fruit when, in one single mental event, I was able to understand the core of the Dhamma by the mean of insight to my strong emotions and to their own cause.
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:00 am

Tachibana wrote:
It has been 2 almost years since I discovered the Dhamma, I'll say it franckly : those who utter that time is needed to achieve the noble fruits are the ones who haven't achieved anything yet because of their wrong practice.
This is where you start disqualifying yourself here. Unless you are claiming iddhis, you do not know what others have achieved. And, of course, who knows what you have achieved? The problem with such self promotion is that it is self promotion. As pointed out, you do yourself no favors by such self-credentialing as the first thing it is you say on a forum. Maybe what you say is true, but quite frankly, it is far better shown that claimed.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby dagon » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:15 am

Tachibana wrote:Indeed I'm not a monk, you'd know this already if you had read my first post.

Not being allowed to speak about attainments doesn't mean not being able to speak about attainments.

It has been 2 almost years since I discovered the Dhamma, I'll say it franckly : those who utter that time is needed to achieve the noble fruits are the ones who haven't achieved anything yet because of their wrong practice.

Throughout my hole practice I'd been trying to put my emotions aside by the mean of the 8 precepts, so how could I even get insight to my emotions ? Instead I only developped some kind of neurosis along with headaches due to my metaphysical theories.

Eventually I understood that I was doing it the wrong way so I came back to the basics : the 5 precepts and the core of the Dhamma. It also took some time, but "I" became able to reach the fruit when, in one single mental event, I was able to understand the core of the Dhamma by the mean of insight to my strong emotions and to their own cause.


enough said

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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby Tachibana » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:54 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Tachibana wrote:
It has been 2 almost years since I discovered the Dhamma, I'll say it franckly : those who utter that time is needed to achieve the noble fruits are the ones who haven't achieved anything yet because of their wrong practice.
This is where you start disqualifying yourself here. Unless you are claiming iddhis, you do not know what others have achieved. And, of course, who knows what you have achieved? The problem with such self promotion is that it is self promotion. As pointed out, you do yourself no favors by such self-credentialing as the first thing it is you say on a forum. Maybe what you say is true, but quite frankly, it is far better shown that claimed.



What I was trying to say is that the Fruit arises immediately after the Path... so if your practice didn't bear any Fruit yet it means that you're not "walking" the Path, and so your practice is wrong.
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