Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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BlackBird
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by BlackBird »

Mal4mac.

Did you know if you put a tinfoil hat on you're 30% less likely to receive a visit from the men in black? That way their gamma ray detectors can't penetrate your brain and reach the implant they put in you as a baby. Better put your ID card in tinfoil too they've chipped that also, it will lead them directly to you!

:lol:

That's how farfetched this is getting.

I will repeat, for good measure - Since it seems it didn't sink in the first time:

Under the DMCA (which is the relevant piece of legislation here, given that the copyrighted materials are hosted on a US server by the Wat Florida website, and furthermore given that this website is also owned and operated in the US) the course of action is simply to request a take down of such a link. If that request has not been proven to be sent and recieved and deliberately ignored/refused, no prosecution can take place.

I have detailed at length with a highly logical reasoning why the author of this book would not spend the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars trying to subpoena the Sangha into giving up the thousands of IP adresses that have accessed that page, and then summarily attempting to prosecute them. There is no legal precedence for this. There would be no hope of achieving any success and finally, the author would have absolutely no motivation to do so, considering A) he's Buddhist and it would unwholesome to do so, B) It would be a huge waste of time and money with no apparent incentive to do so. I very much doubt he has even a fifth of the necessary funds it would take to finance such an incredibly stupid idea as it would be to attempt to prosecute thousands of people like you in individual court cases.

Furthermore, have you actually read the article you linked me about Georgia State vs. Oxford Uni Press?
The plaintiffs claimed that Georgia State University engaged in "systematic, widespread and unauthorized copying and distribution of a vast amount of copyrighted works" through its e-reserves system.[2] Georgia State asserted that its system did not infringe copyright because its uses were fair use.[3]
The district court issued a 350-page findings of fact and conclusions of law on May 11, 2012, finding that in almost all cases the alleged infringements were fair use.[4] In a subsequent decision the court deemed that Georgia State University was the "prevailing party" and ordered the plaintiffs to pay GSU's attorney's fees.[5] Notwithstanding the "prevailing party" decision, the plaintiffs characterized the case as "flawed" but not a "loss",[6] but nonetheless filed an appeal.[7]
The bits I have highlighted are important:
1. The plaintiffs were taking GST to court over something much much more serious than simply hosting links to copyrighted material. They were arguing that GST's online library was essentially hosting and allowing for download hundreds of thousands of e books for which they did not have permission. The two things are worlds apart.

2. Georgia State was actually doing nothing illegal, my university here at Otago offers the same service to it's students - One of allowing them to borrow ebooks online for a period, as do many universities around the world. One is able to do so under 'fair use' - The same legal framework that allows public libraries to offer their books to lend to members.

3. The court rejected O.U.P case, and ordered them to pay GST's legal fees, they may have appealed, but in any case the situation does not look good for them, nor for anyone who would seek to bring a similar case against an organisation in future.

4. You know the maximum O.U.P could legally seek from G.S.T was an injunction? Do you know that they were only seeking a court mandated cease and desist?

So in summary, the case you have cited is completely irrelevant to what we're talking about here, as there are a world of differences between the supossed 'infringement' of hosting a link on a discussion forum/clicking it, and hosting a system that allows people to download hundreds of thousands of ebooks and in any case, the plaintiffs lost the case! But even if they had won, all they would have achieved was to make G.S.T cease and desist. In DW's case that would simply mean the removal of any link to copyrighted material.

So to suggest that 'because that court case happened, what's stopping 'them' from going after Dhamma Wheel?' is so thoroughly logically fallacious that it does not warrant any more mention.

I'm sorry Mal4Mac, but Buddhist authors and copyright lawyers have better things to do with their time than hunt you down for clicking a link. They have actual purposeful activities to occupy their day with. So abandon this fantasy - It's unskillful and purposeless. Nobody has ever been fined or sent to jail for clicking on a link that contains copyrighted material, and they're not about to start doing it, not even for someone as important as yourself ;)

So please, relax - Give it up. No men in black will be knocking at your door for this. Nobody's putting Ben in jail, nor David (who is the actual owner btw) and neither will you be fined money you don't have. All's good and well in the world.
Last edited by BlackBird on Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:23 am, edited 3 times in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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convivium
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by convivium »

if you download things on university servers you might have problems.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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BlackBird
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by BlackBird »

I might add that a post from much earlier in this thread seems to have been thoroughly ignored.
Dhamma Wheel and related sites of the site owner are owned and operated out of the U.S. As such it comes under the guidelines of 47 US Code Section 230(c)(1), including the Communications Decency Act, which provides owners, administrators, moderators, and posters immunity from any content in here posted by someone else.
Case closed.

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
mal4mac
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by mal4mac »

BlackBird wrote:Mal4mac.
Did you know if you put a tinfoil hat on you're 30% less likely to receive a visit from the men in black?... That's how farfetched this is getting.
From that Independent article I linked to:

"Bob May, a British PR, found out the hard way how seriously record companies are taking the issue. While copying an unreleased album for work, he accidently left a file-sharing site open on his computer. It was only a few minutes before he realised his mistake but in that time a track had already been downloaded. "A couple of weeks later, on Christmas Day, I got a phone call from a man employed by the record company who wanted to know how the song had been leaked. He called every day for a week and insisted on meeting," May explains. "Two guys in long black coats turned up at my work, trying to intimidate me. We resolved it, but they said if it happened again, they'd use the full force of the law."
BlackBird wrote: Under the DMCA (which is the relevant piece of legislation here, given that the copyrighted materials are hosted on a US server by the Wat Florida website, and furthermore given that this website is also owned and operated in the US) the course of action is simply to request a take down of such a link. If that request has not been proven to be sent and recieved and deliberately ignored/refused, no prosecution can take place.
Do you have an in depth knowledge of UK law? If the crime is committed by a UK person against a UK company, do you think that British company will stop just because "the tool" involved was an American server? Maybe... but you'd have to site precedent to convince me.
BlackBird wrote: ... finally, the author would have absolutely no motivation to do so, considering A) he's Buddhist and it would unwholesome to do so, B) It would be a huge waste of time and money with no apparent incentive to do so....
The publisher would... did you see my link to the CUP & OUP vs. Georgia University? Because Georgia University had state protection the publishers had no chance of getting any money in damages... the incentive is to use high profile cases to highlight book stealing...
BlackBird wrote: ... copyright lawyers have better things to do with their time than hunt you down for clicking a link.
That's probably true, but who knows, they might decide, "let's make an example of this guy..."
BlackBird wrote: "Nobody has ever been fined or sent to jail for clicking on a link that contains copyrighted material...
".... the jury in Jammie Thomas-Rasset's federal retrial found the 32-year-old Minnesota mother liable for willfully infringing the copyrights of 24 songs she downloaded off the Web and awarded record labels $1.92 million."
http://scitech.blogs.cnn.com/2009/06/19 ... -per-song/

"The RIAA has sued thousands in its legal campaign against file sharing."
- Mal
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convivium
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by convivium »

if you're not in an internet cave, then you won't get caught pirating.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
mal4mac
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by mal4mac »

BlackBird wrote:I might add that a post from much earlier in this thread seems to have been thoroughly ignored.
Dhamma Wheel and related sites of the site owner are owned and operated out of the U.S. As such it comes under the guidelines of 47 US Code Section 230(c)(1), including the Communications Decency Act, which provides owners, administrators, moderators, and posters immunity from any content in here posted by someone else.
Case closed.
Nope, I looked closely at that and responded to it... please scroll up, if you can see this, it should be there now.

metta
Mal
- Mal
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convivium
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by convivium »

when's the last time pariyati or wisdom, etc. have sued someone for filesharing? if anything, they'll just ask to take it down..
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
mal4mac
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by mal4mac »

BlackBird wrote: 4. You know the maximum O.U.P could legally seek from G.S.T was an injunction? Do you know that they were only seeking a court mandated cease and desist?
Yes... because it is a state institution, they could extract money from me! Also a British judge is more likely to look more kindly on the publishers of O.U.P... probably went to the same college (!)
BlackBird wrote:there are a world of differences between the supossed 'infringement' of hosting a link... and hosting a system that allows people to download hundreds of thousands of ebooks
Further information ... it's not just one link there *are* dozens...
- Mal
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Ben
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by Ben »

Greetings all,

Regarding DW copyright practice:

When we discover a post is linked to a copyrighted resource - we take it down.
Repeat offenders are 'counselled' and if they continue to link to copyrighted resources then we use disciplinary action to assist in modifying that behaviour.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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BlackBird
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by BlackBird »

Mal4Mac I can see you've ignored most of the important parts of my argument, probably a case of tacit acknoledgement despite the fact you have continued to attempt to argue your conspiracy theory proposition. I will give you a fuller response later, but for now I will respond to this point:
Mal4Mac wrote:
BlackBird wrote: "Nobody has ever been fined or sent to jail for clicking on a link that contains copyrighted material...
".... the jury in Jammie Thomas-Rasset's federal retrial found the 32-year-old Minnesota mother liable for willfully infringing the copyrights of 24 songs she downloaded off the Web and awarded record labels $1.92 million."
http://scitech.blogs.cnn.com/2009/06/19 ... -per-song/

"The RIAA has sued thousands in its legal campaign against file sharing."
Yet again we have another logical fallacy, far from the first we have encountered in your arguments and probably not the last: It is a red herring.

Do you know why?

Because downloading 24 songs off the web, is not even close to the same thing as clicking a link that contains copyrighted material.

So it stands: Nobody has ever been proscecuted for merely clicking a link that contains copyrighted material. So that's 0/2 in terms of example cases you have presented.

I consider myself a reasonable guy, I'm not liable to hyperbole, or getting overly excited about my interactions, so I say the following with no small amount of consideration:

The argument I have seen from you here in this thread, is the most ridiculous and farfetched 'what if' I have seen this year. Now given, I don't spend much time hanging out on conspiracy theory forums where people with similar ideas are likely to be found, but nevertheless, I have encountered one or two farfetched concerns and worries from people this year - And at least in their case the incident was possible - Your's is so highly improbable it verges on the impossible.

No publisher, no author has any financial incentive to bring a lawsuit against this website, or the thousands of people that have probably accessed the WatFlorida link. There is no legal precedence for doing so. No company in their right mind would try and forge a new path by targeting some unknown website in the wops of the internet and it's users, even on the remote chance that their legal team had gone crazy and decided to form a case from this type of 'breech' - They wouldn't target this website...Not when there are much bigger fish to fry, fish that might - Oh, I dunno - Actually have some assets worth seeking in damages? Furthermore, I have detailed in depth how the relevant legislation in this case prevents such a website as this from being prosecuted off the bat, the requirements are that beforehand the website would have to reject application from the relevant party to remove the offending link.

While there is not a DMCA in Europe (UK) there is equivalent legislation, while there is no formal take down clause unlike the US legislation, it is common practice to nevertheless send a take down request before pursuing such actions. Furthermore, it really doesn't matter about the EU legislation here, because given that DW is a US based website, in the entirely hypothetical example where a UK publisher wanted to seek damages from DW for posting a link to copyrighted material, they would need to do so under US legislation, which leads us neatly back to the DMCA.

And the absolute necessity for a take down notice to be served and rejected before any legal action can take place.

On the other side of the coin: The likelyhood of some publisher subpoenaing Wat Florida and obtaining your IP address, then bringing litigation against you and thousands of others in individual cases seeking damages is so farfetched and ridiculous (because of the extreme cost and lack of incentive) that it does not merit any further discussion.

Please don't take what could be considered harsh speech personally though, my issue is with your argument, not with you as a person :)

with metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
daimond
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by daimond »

well if simple do not make it complicated, send email to the author ask permit to download the material or read the material.
vixian
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by vixian »

When you buy off Amazon or Kindle books and you lose your device or it is stolen ... you download all the books you already purchased without extra charge.
It is as if you have bought the licence .... in the same way I don't see a problem of downloading again if lost.
Physical books ... well, I do see that as theft in any way shape or form.

If in doubt rather than going through tortuous paths go back to original vendor and explain ...
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