Cessation of suffering

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Cessation of suffering

Postby bartovan » Fri May 17, 2013 7:37 am

I would very much like to discuss the following with you. In the Pali phrase

"Yo tassa yeva tanhaya asesa-viraga-nirodho cago patinissaggo mutti analayo"
(DN II 310)

there are the concepts of patinissaggo (rejecting) and analayo (aversion), which, 'applied' to craving, would mean the cessation of suffering. So the cessation of suffering would be, amongst others: the rejection of craving, the aversion towards craving.

Now I find this highly incompatible with the description of suffering in the 1st noble truth, where I would understand that rejection and aversion are themselves suffering (namely association with the unpleasant). And with the 2nd noble truth where "craving for non-existence" is stated as being, and rightly so, a cause of suffering. Rejection and above all aversion are cravings for non-existence, or go together with these, in my opinion and experience.
So finally a cause of suffering would be put forward as entailing the cessation of suffering, which seems to me incoherent and, in real life, impossible.

I know the Buddha was not incoherent. It is not my intention, at all, to bring down buddhism, on the contrary, it is a rare and extremely precious jewel in the history of humanity.

But I do find we have a problem here in the words, the transmission and/or the translation of this phrase.

What do you think?

Thank you very much for any and every thought, reaction or criticism.

(I also had a brief discussion about this subject, concerning the translation and grammar, here: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=17164. I don't think this is double posting because here I would really like to discuss interpretation and meaning).
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Re: Cessation of suffering

Postby Dmytro » Fri May 17, 2013 7:54 am

bartovan wrote:there are the concepts of patinissaggo (rejecting) and analayo (aversion)


These are rather mistranslations.

Bhikkhu Bodhi translates this phrase from Mahasatipatthana sutta as:

'And what, monks, is the Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering? It is the complete fading-away and extinction of this craving, its forsaking and abandonment (paṭinissaggo), liberation from it, detachment (anālayo) from it.'
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Re: Cessation of suffering

Postby Zakattack » Fri May 17, 2013 11:16 am

bartovan wrote:I would very much like to discuss the following with you. In the Pali phrase

"Yo tassa yeva tanhaya asesa-viraga-nirodho cago patinissaggo mutti analayo"


from 23:34 http://www.liberationpark.org/audio/ntruths/8901-5a.mp3

:candle:
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Re: Cessation of suffering

Postby anando » Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:22 pm

Hi,
there is a nice quote from Saritputto - Pali Canon- that says:"The objectice changes of matter are being felt subjectively as suffering."
Suffering stopps when matter doesn´t matter any more.

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Re: Cessation of suffering

Postby lyndon taylor » Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:12 pm

The 4 Noble truths teach us that suffering can be eliminated, by eliminating the causes of suffering. IMHO there are a lot of causes of suffering, not only the usual suspects, like desire and craving. But eliminating the causes of suffering is no easy matter and takes time, the bright side is if we eliminate some of the causes of suffering, we may well see an appreciable reduction in our amount of suffering, which gives us faith to continue on the path.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: Cessation of suffering

Postby Kumara » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:36 am

Dmytro wrote:
bartovan wrote:there are the concepts of patinissaggo (rejecting) and analayo (aversion)


These are rather mistranslations.

Bhikkhu Bodhi translates this phrase from Mahasatipatthana sutta as:

'And what, monks, is the Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering? It is the complete fading-away and extinction of this craving, its forsaking and abandonment (paṭinissaggo), liberation from it, detachment (anālayo) from it.'

I was quite surprised by the "aversion" translation. I looked it up and found out that PTS's PED actually have that as its definition!
Anālaya [an + ālaya] aversion, doing away with Vin.I,10 (taṇhāya). (Page 32)

No alternative meaning of "detachment" or "non-attachment" there. Strange...
To its credit though, among the definitions for Ālaya is
2. “hanging on”, attachment, desire, clinging, lust S.I,136 = Vin.I,4 (°rāma “devoted to the things to which it clings” K. S.); Vin.III,20, 111; S.IV,372 (an°); V,421 sq. (id.); A.II,34, 131 (°rāma); III,35; It.88; Sn.177 (kām° = kāmesu taṇhā-diṭṭhi-vasena duvidho ālayo SnA 216), 535 (+ āsavāni), 635; Nett 121, 123 (°samugghāta); Vism.293 (id.), 497; Miln.203 (Buddh °ṁ akāsi?); DhA.I,121; IV,186 (= taṇhā); SnA 468 (= anoka of Sn.366).
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Re: Cessation of suffering

Postby Ananda26 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:20 pm

bartovan wrote:I would very much like to discuss the following with you. In the Pali phrase

"Yo tassa yeva tanhaya asesa-viraga-nirodho cago patinissaggo mutti analayo"
(DN II 310)

there are the concepts of patinissaggo (rejecting) and analayo (aversion), which, 'applied' to craving, would mean the cessation of suffering. So the cessation of suffering would be, amongst others: the rejection of craving, the aversion towards craving.

Now I find this highly incompatible with the description of suffering in the 1st noble truth, where I would understand that rejection and aversion are themselves suffering (namely association with the unpleasant). And with the 2nd noble truth where "craving for non-existence" is stated as being, and rightly so, a cause of suffering. Rejection and above all aversion are cravings for non-existence, or go together with these, in my opinion and experience.
So finally a cause of suffering would be put forward as entailing the cessation of suffering, which seems to me incoherent and, in real life, impossible.

I know the Buddha was not incoherent. It is not my intention, at all, to bring down buddhism, on the contrary, it is a rare and extremely precious jewel in the history of humanity.

But I do find we have a problem here in the words, the transmission and/or the translation of this phrase.

What do you think?

Thank you very much for any and every thought, reaction or criticism.

(I also had a brief discussion about this subject, concerning the translation and grammar, here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=17164. I don't think this is double posting because here I would really like to discuss interpretation and meaning).


The Noble Truth of Suffering: Birth is suffering, ageing is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering, sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress are suffering. Being attached to the unloved is suffering, being separated from the beloved is suffering, not to get what one wishes for is suffering, in short the 5 aggregates affected by clinging are suffering.

The Noble Truth of the Arising of Suffering: It is that craving that gives rise to rebirth bound up with delight and lust, finding fresh delight, now here, now there, that is sensual craving, craving for becoming, and craving for non becoming.

The Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering. It is the dispassion of this craving, cessation, generosity, and reluinquishment.
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Re: Cessation of suffering

Postby starter » Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:54 am

Ananda26 wrote:The Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering. It is the dispassion of this craving, cessation, generosity, and reluinquishment.


Hello Bhante,

Is "generosity" a typo here? Is it better to translate it as "the giving up" or "letting go" [of that very craving]?

"It is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, non-reliance on it."

Thanks and metta!

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Re: Cessation of suffering

Postby Unrul3r » Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:57 am

anando wrote:Hi,
there is a nice quote from Saritputto - Pali Canon- that says:"The objectice changes of matter are being felt subjectively as suffering."
Suffering stopps when matter doesn´t matter any more.

anando


I've never heard of that quote, in which sutta can it be found?

:namaste:
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Re: Cessation of suffering

Postby seeker242 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:58 am

bartovan wrote:So finally a cause of suffering would be put forward as entailing the cessation of suffering, which seems to me incoherent and, in real life, impossible.


I don't think that is the case. Thanissaro Bhikkhu comments on this here. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... e.html#lif


" ...clinging is suffering, we simply have to look to see precisely where clinging is and learn not to cling.

This is where we encounter the Buddha's great skill as a strategist: He tells us to take the clingings we'll have to abandon and transform them into the path to their abandoning. We'll need a certain amount of sensory pleasure — in terms of adequate food, clothing, and shelter — to find the strength to go beyond sensual passion. We'll need right view — seeing all things, including views, in terms of the four noble truths — to undermine our clinging to views. And we'll need a regimen of the five ethical precepts and the practice of meditation to put the mind in a solid position where it can drop its clinging to precepts and practices. Underlying all this, we'll need a strong sense of self-responsibility and self-discipline to master the practices leading to the insight that cuts through our clinging to doctrines of the self.

So we start the path to the end of suffering, not by trying to drop our clingings immediately, but by learning to cling more strategically. In other words, we start where we are and make the best use of the habits we've already got. We progress along the path by finding better and better things to cling to, and more skillful ways to cling, in the same way you climb a ladder to the top of a roof: grab hold of a higher rung so that you can let go of a lower rung, and then grab onto a rung still higher. As the rungs get further off the ground, you find that the mind grows clearer and can see precisely where its clingings are. It gets a sharper sense of which parts of experience belong to which noble truth and what should be done with them: the parts that are suffering should be comprehended, the parts that cause of suffering — craving and ignorance — should be abandoned; the parts that form the path to the end of suffering should be developed; and the parts that belong to the end of suffering should be verified. This helps you get higher and higher on the ladder until you find yourself securely on the roof. That's when you can finally let go of the ladder and be totally free."


A lot of other good comments in the same essay. :)
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