Thank you for your kind words Perkele and thank you both Nirosh & Rob for your contributions, I feel vindicated in making the original post because of your supporting anecdotes. I too have witnessed quite a bit of corruption in the Sangha during my time in Sri Lanka, but surely nothing on the scale that you have.
I am utterly disgusted by the actions (murder, poisoning, sexual activities, corruption, misappropriation of funds etc etc) that have been detailed. Thank you for coming forward, it is for the long term good that you have done so.
Eventually it would be nice if the parajika men were to be investigated and forcibly disrobed (given their reluctance to remove themselves from the robes that they have no right to wear), but I know all too well that such an occurrence would be a pipe dream given the permeation of corruption at all levels. It gives me pause for thought in my own intentions to ordain in future, and I shall certainly be much more careful about selecting the right place than I was during my last attempt (in Sri Lanka).
with metta
Jack
"The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals
Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes
I would not be too quick to judge everyone who had a parajika offense levelled against them in the book as 'parajika men'. It may well be that they are parajika, in which case they are no longer Bhikkhus anyway. But it maybe that some of the incidents reported may come from a misunderstanding or might not be entirely accurate. In a monastic community which doesn't have access to worldly news, there is a tendency for rumours and stories to take on a rather too fanastic turn. I am not denying what the author in the book wrote but I would say there is one inaccuracy that I am aware of, and there may be more. For example, the monk that Ven. Ariyananda beat with a stick was not a senior monk, but was actually a samanera. Though it could be argued that he was a senior monk, as he had taken pabbaja before Ven. Ariyananda. But he was not a bhikkhu, yet by saying he was a senior monk gives the story more weight. Though that is not to excuse beating another human being with a stick.BlackBird wrote: Eventually it would be nice if the parajika men were to be investigated and forcibly disrobed (given their reluctance to remove themselves from the robes that they have no right to wear)
I should also add that although Ven. Sanghasobhana did have a bit of a temper, he has a very good heart; I found the comments about him in the book quite childish and naive. He worked tirelessly for other monks and for the sangha when I was there. It was sad to see the book portraying him in such a negative light.
Last edited by Rob1980 on Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes
Dear perkele, thank you for your kind and emollient comments. They prove a firm maturity.
And Rob1980, it must have been painful, bringing those memories back. But you did so not to make another goes through the same suffering. Thank you.
Unlike Lord Buddha’s time, nowadays monks tend to hide the filth or even try to rationalize it. Actually, this is rejoicing the evil deeds of another and not the way Lord Buddha reacted in such situations. It is brave for you to raise the voice, even though you are safe in UK, far from Na-Uyana thugs.
And Rob1980, it must have been painful, bringing those memories back. But you did so not to make another goes through the same suffering. Thank you.
Yes BlackBird, when the intention is pure it creates good and beneficial results. We felt that you are genuinely seeking answers, that’s why my friends informed me and I decided to give. Sadhu! Sadhu!perkele wrote:And thank you Rob1980 in the same vein, for contributing with consideration to such an important dialogue.
Since you mentioned “witch hunt”, Ven. Ariyananda said that he and Ariyadhamma Mahathera went to several fortune-tellers for this purpose. What an embarrassment! Soon after the book became public, Ven. Ariyananda knew this time there is no escape and wrote a letter to send to donors admitting guilt for the things mentioned in the book. Unfortunately, couple of his companions encouraged him not to do so. If he admitted guilt publicly at that time and left the robe, it would have been a loss for his henchmen (as mentioned in the book), but surely a great benefit for Na-Uyana and good monks. And Rob1980 may have been a 5 vassa bhikkhu.Rob1980 wrote:As you can imagine there was a bit of witch hunt to find who was responsible, but the problem was they didn't know who was behind it.
It’s always good to break harmful cultural trances. If take this break skilfully with a still mind growth is assured.Rob1980 wrote:Anyway, it was enough for me to be extremely disillusioned with monasticism in general and I disrobed in August 2011, just before the end of the vassa.
I know you had good friends who left Na-Uyana at the same time, should have asked their help without disrobing. At times oceans can be very rough, but not difficult to find a safe boat. Anyway, the situation would not have been ideal for the proper decision-making.Rob1980 wrote:The only viable option I saw was to live alone in the forests, as do a quite a few forest monks away from all the politics, but I did not have a strong enough foundation in meditation.
I remember you, the tall Englishman from London. And the other monk who disrobed with you was Ven. Yogananda, who was labelled as a heretic by the elders due to his admiration towards Ajahn Sujato as a scholar.Rob1980 wrote:I felt slightly hesitant to give my pali name, as I have friends at Na Uyana, and I thought if the elders read what I have said, perhaps I may not be able to go back to Sri Lanka to visit them. But there is nothing that I have said which is harmful to the sangha and not true, therefore I don't mind giving my name... I was given the name 'England Sumana'.
Unlike Lord Buddha’s time, nowadays monks tend to hide the filth or even try to rationalize it. Actually, this is rejoicing the evil deeds of another and not the way Lord Buddha reacted in such situations. It is brave for you to raise the voice, even though you are safe in UK, far from Na-Uyana thugs.
Since several years before you I was in Na-Uyana and left just before 2011, during that period I stayed in other monasteries too. As I mentioned earlier, I was a very virtuous monk, and did not want to engage in legal battles. As Ajahn Brahm says, “no need to take revenge, kamma will get the bastards anyway.” I do have a few friends there. Many of my good friends left Na-Uyana already. Actually good monks don’t stay in Na-Uyana in the long run.Rob1980 wrote:What years were you at Na Uyana? Did you not think about reporting the incident to the police? Do you have any friends still at Na Uyana?
Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes
Dear Nirosh
Thank you for your comments.
I wasn't aware that Ven. Ariyananda was about to send a letter to reveal his guilt regarding the incidents in the book, how were you able to come by such information?
I am curious as whether you went to Australia as a monk, and if so, why did you decided to disrobe?
Did you ever stay at Ajahn Brahm's monastery as a monk? If so, would you recommend it?
And finally, what keeps you in Australia?
With metta
Rob
Thank you for your comments.
I wasn't aware that Ven. Ariyananda was about to send a letter to reveal his guilt regarding the incidents in the book, how were you able to come by such information?
I am curious as whether you went to Australia as a monk, and if so, why did you decided to disrobe?
Did you ever stay at Ajahn Brahm's monastery as a monk? If so, would you recommend it?
And finally, what keeps you in Australia?
With metta
Rob
Last edited by Rob1980 on Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reviews of Meditation and Yoga retreats as well as Monasteries: https://www.reviewmyretreat.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes
Enough is enough.
- appicchato
- Posts: 1602
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
- Location: Bridge on the River Kwae
Re: Surin monk accused of B56m fraud
Dhamma Wheel turning tabloid?...why not stick to the good stuff...
Re: Surin monk accused of B56m fraud
Indeed.appicchato wrote:Dhamma Wheel turning tabloid?...why not stick to the good stuff...
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Surin monk accused of B56m fraud
Apologies Ven Appicchato and Ben,
have I posted something that I shouldn't have in the Lounge forum? - "Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends"
have I posted something that I shouldn't have in the Lounge forum? - "Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends"
Hartridge Buddhist Monastery, Devon, England
Re: Surin monk accused of B56m fraud
Its ok, forestmat.
My concern is that threads like this can degenerate into shaudenfreude and we've had a few threads of late that have focused on the alleged indiscretions of some monks.
I am sympathetic to the fact that we have ordained members here and the last thing I want is for them to feel uncomfortable or unwelcome here.
kind regards,
Ben
My concern is that threads like this can degenerate into shaudenfreude and we've had a few threads of late that have focused on the alleged indiscretions of some monks.
I am sympathetic to the fact that we have ordained members here and the last thing I want is for them to feel uncomfortable or unwelcome here.
kind regards,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes
Right, this is why I did not give a specific name of those who may or may not be parajika. What I am saying is if there are parajika men (and it would seem given the account of Nirosh that that is the case), then in an ideal world, these former monks would be stripped of their robes, and forced to stop being imposters. If a former monk is parajika and is pretending to be a monk he is bringing harm upon the Sasana and an incredible amount of harm upon himself.Rob1980 wrote:I would not be too quick to judge everyone who had a parajika offense levelled against them in the book as 'parajika men'. It may well be that they are parajika, in which case they are no longer Bhikkhus anyway. But it maybe that some of the incidents reported may come from a misunderstanding or might not be entirely accurate. In a monastic community which doesn't have access to worldly news, there is a tendency for rumours and stories to take on a rather too fanastic turn. I am not denying what the author in the book wrote but I would say there is one inaccuracy that I am aware of, and there may be more. For example, the monk that Ven. Ariyananda beat with a stick was not a senior monk, but was actually a samanera. Though it could be argued that he was a senior monk, as he had taken pabbaja before Ven. Ariyananda. But he was not a bhikkhu, yet by saying he was a senior monk gives the story more weight. Though that is not to excuse beating another human being with a stick.BlackBird wrote: Eventually it would be nice if the parajika men were to be investigated and forcibly disrobed (given their reluctance to remove themselves from the robes that they have no right to wear)
I should also add that although Ven. Sanghasobhana did have a bit of a temper, he has a very good heart; I found the comments about him in the book quite childish and naive. He worked tirelessly for other monks and for the sangha when I was there. It was sad to see the book portraying him in such a negative light.
I'm sure that some of the monks mentioned in the book are nice people, but I am also aware (given my own long history with akusala acts) that good people can do bad things.
I hope that clarifys things somewhat Rob
metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
Re: Surin monk accused of B56m fraud
Certainly no schadenfreude (which is what I think you meant to write) on my behalf Ben - but I do live in Thailand and these are currently big stories here.
The development and practice of Mudita is a far more appropriate virtue.
The development and practice of Mudita is a far more appropriate virtue.
Hartridge Buddhist Monastery, Devon, England
Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes
Dear all,
This thread is closed until further notice while the mod/admin team review the content.
kind regards,
Ben
This thread is closed until further notice while the mod/admin team review the content.
kind regards,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Surin monk accused of B56m fraud
Yes it was, thanks for the correction.forestmat wrote:Certainly no schadenfreude (which is what I think you meant to write)
Understood, I was not thinking of you. But in my experience, these sorts of threads tend to degenerate into negativity as they attract more contributors.forestmat wrote:on my behalf Ben
I understand completely.forestmat wrote:- but I do live in Thailand and these are currently big stories here.
I am glad to hear it, forestmat!forestmat wrote:The development and practice of Mudita is a far more appropriate virtue.
Personally, I am very appreciative of the presence of ordained members of the sangha here at Dhamma Wheel. They are indeed, a jewel.
with metta,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Surin monk accused of B56m fraud
Maybe we could have a corruption mega thread, as a place to keep all these stories and discussions in one place, rather than having multiple threads per week discussing the same topic?
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
Scandals in the Sangha and the relevance to our practice
Last few years there have been some scandals in American Zen circles that I have followed to varying extent and now there are many threads about scandals and corruption in Theravada on this forum. So I wanted to explore the ramifications of these events to us, to our practice.
First I would like to invite you to pay attention to what resonates in you to these events. What are the reactions? I think it is worthwhile to stop and listen carefully before reacting and proceeding with further proliferations.
For me I had been puzzled how many years of practice do not guarantee basic morality, I wondered how and where one goes off the track and if indeed their practice was efficacious. I also wondered if the culture at the various temples and monasteries is conducive to cultivation.
These are good questions I thought and I do not advocate sweeping them under the carpet. But what I also noticed is when such doubts start to dominate then rather than being inspired and determined, I waiver in my practice and my own sila begins to decline. After all contemplating the qualities of the Buddha, being inspired by great teachers and indeed having contact with them, are fantastic motivators, whereas corrosive doubt is not.
I am wondering if people notice their attraction to these scandals, the inordinate amount of time (and forum space) given to them and the effect this is having on their practice. And then scandals are followed by anonymous accounts, anonymous accusations - 'Oh what a tangled web we weave!'
I am guessing many members have kept clear of all this stuff precisely because they see it as not conducive to good practice. Perhaps those of us without such clarity can reflect...
First I would like to invite you to pay attention to what resonates in you to these events. What are the reactions? I think it is worthwhile to stop and listen carefully before reacting and proceeding with further proliferations.
For me I had been puzzled how many years of practice do not guarantee basic morality, I wondered how and where one goes off the track and if indeed their practice was efficacious. I also wondered if the culture at the various temples and monasteries is conducive to cultivation.
These are good questions I thought and I do not advocate sweeping them under the carpet. But what I also noticed is when such doubts start to dominate then rather than being inspired and determined, I waiver in my practice and my own sila begins to decline. After all contemplating the qualities of the Buddha, being inspired by great teachers and indeed having contact with them, are fantastic motivators, whereas corrosive doubt is not.
I am wondering if people notice their attraction to these scandals, the inordinate amount of time (and forum space) given to them and the effect this is having on their practice. And then scandals are followed by anonymous accounts, anonymous accusations - 'Oh what a tangled web we weave!'
I am guessing many members have kept clear of all this stuff precisely because they see it as not conducive to good practice. Perhaps those of us without such clarity can reflect...
_/|\_