Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Holdan
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by Holdan »

Ajatashatru wrote:As far as I am concerned, Buddhism belonging to the Dharma traditions is not static and fossilized but ever evolving.
This is just your personal opinion, is not related to Buddhism & is not true. The recorded teachings of Buddha & the rules of the monks in the Vinaya have remained the same (static) for at least 2,000 years. Buddhism is the teachings of Buddha and not the teachings of Ajatashatru.

It is also noticeable how the purer Theravada Buddhism has outlasted & is far stronger than those Mahayana schools that sought to develop new philosophies & particularly get involved in politics & government. Tibet is an example, where the dharma there has been strongly persecuted because it is the seat of politics. Where as in Thailand, Buddhism is not even the official national religion & it has flourished.
Ajatashatru wrote: First question I must ask is do we really have ALL the teachings of the Buddha available. Remember Nalanda library burned for six months.
The subjects taught at Nalanda University covered every field of learning and it attracted pupils and scholars from Korea, Japan, China, Tibet, Indonesia, Persia and Turkey. It did not exclusively teach Buddhism. Nalanda was destroyed in 1193. Where as the original teachings of Buddha, after being orally transmitted, were written down in 83 BC, which was 1,276 years before the demise of Nalanda.
Ajatashatru wrote: Secondly, we should read between the lines. We all know Theravada does not prohibit meat. Why is that? Is anybody that naive to think all the animals that we eat just jumped off a cliff
:strawman: Theradava prohibits monks eating meat if it is known or suspected the animal was killed for the monk. Theravada monk's silently beg for food & must not make trouble for laypeople. Theravada monks eat what the people eat. If the people decide to be vegetarian then the monks they feed will be vegetarian.
Ajatashatru wrote:Buddhism if anything is a sharp contrast to fatalistic Hinduism and Jainism. For example, Buddha actively seeked patronage of King Ajatashatru.
My understanding is King Ajatashatru actively seeked patronage of Buddha (refer to Samaññaphala Sutta).
Ajatashatru wrote:I am yet to see a non-western senior Theravada monk condemn this violence in Burma to the degree you guys have.
I trust there would be non-western senior Theravada monks condemn this violence. When I lived in Thailand, the most famous monks often condemned violence & corruption by the Thai government. I have heard it myself, in person, when there was once a coup de tat in Thailand & people were shot in the streets.
Ajatashatru wrote:Or perhaps the Asians are too full of superstition to grasp the Buddha's true message and need a guiding Westerner to set them straight.
The original Buddhist scriptures are Asian. The teachers most Westerners have learned from are Asian. The difference between Western Buddhism & Asian Buddhism is the majority of Western Buddhists are practitioners where as the majority of Asian Buddhists are mere cultural Buddhists, just like the majority of Western Christians are cultural rather than practising Christians.
Ajatashatru wrote:Why don't you preach to the...Chakma in Bangladesh about the Buddha's true teachings then?
Buddha taught it is a blessing to live in a suitable locality. If the Chakma are a minority, violence will not help them, since they cannot win. Like the Tibetans sought refuge in India, they can seek refuge elsewhere.
Let none through anger or ill-will
Wish harm upon another.
Even as a mother protects with her life
Her child, her only child,
So with a boundless heart
Should one cherish all living beings;

Karaniya Metta Sutta
Holdan
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by Holdan »

Alex123 wrote:Also, what were his views on slavery?
On rule of Kings?
On torture and capital punishment by the King?
His views were different to the prevailing secular views on slavery, torture & capital punishment. For example, when King Ajatashatru, after killing his own father, one of the heinous crimes in Buddhism, sought solace in Buddha, Buddha accepted his confession. Buddha did not prescribe capital punishment.

Buddha accepted that secular rule of law would inflict punishments on people or include slavery but Buddha himself did not recommend such practises. Buddha taught all people, regardless of caste, lose their social status, including as a slave, when they join the Sangha.

Buddha was able to distinguish between & keep separate the role dharma & the role of prevailing government (which you are not doing).

The debate that is occurring here is a debate between devas (most of us) & asuras (you and Ajatashatru), as is found in the Subhasita-jaya Sutta.

:geek:
Last edited by Holdan on Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Alex123
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by Alex123 »

Holdan wrote:It is also noticeable how the purer Theravada Buddhism has outlasted & is far stronger than those Mahayana schools that sought to develop new philosophies & particularly get involved in politics & government.
First of all, Theravada (as opposed to many other early Buddhist schools) survived because it went to Sri Lanka which was out of reach of Muslims.

Mahayana schools formed later, and also out of reach of Muslims (in SE Asia such as China, Japan or in Tibet). I am not sure if Theravada is "stronger" than Mahayana schools, and Theravada did develop new doctrines (Commentaries, etc).
Holdan wrote: Where as in Thailand, Buddhism is not even the official national religion & it has flourished.
Maybe because Muslims didn't get there.

What sort of fantasy world are you living in? What I've learned is that some people will do whatever it takes to get their way. If you show "good will" they will take it as weakness, and will fleece you to the max.


Buddhist metta didn't help in India against muslims, so why do you think Burma will be any different? Better bhikkhus?
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Alex123
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by Alex123 »

Holdan wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Also, what were his views on slavery?
On rule of Kings?
On torture and capital punishment by the King?
His views were different to the prevailing secular views on slavery, torture & capital punishment. For example, when King Ajatashatru, after killing his own father, one of the heinous crimes in Buddhism, sought solace in Buddha, Buddha accepted his confession. Buddha did not prescribe capital punishment.

Buddha accepted that secular rule of law would inflict punishments on people or include slavery but Buddha himself did not recommend such practises. Buddha taught all people, regardless of caste, lose their social status, including as a slave, when they join the Sangha.

Buddha was able to distinguish between & keep separate the role dharma & the role of prevailing government (which you are not doing).

:geek:
Did the Buddha ever tell the king, "We need democracy, abolish slavery, and no capital punishment"? No. Buddha took for granted the absolute power of the King, slavery, torture and capital punishment. The Buddha did not recommend this to the Bhikkhus.

He never outlawed army, etc. What do you think army is for? Giving out free cookies and planting trees?
Holdan
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by Holdan »

Alex123 wrote:Did the Buddha ever tell the king, "We need democracy, freedom for slaves, and no capital punishment"? No. Buddha took for granted the absolute power of the King, slavery, torture and capital punishment. The Buddha did not recommend this to the Bhikkhus.

He never outlawed army, etc.
You appear to have not comprehended Buddha. Buddha gave advice to those who sought it from him. Buddha did not evangelise publically. Also, I trust you are aware of the sutta about being a soldier, where Buddha explained the karmic consequences of being a soldier (Yodhajiva Sutta: To Yodhajiva (The Warrior)).

What do you think army is for? Army is for the society but not related to Buddhism. If a monk encourages soldiers to kill, they are defeated under Vinaya (in my understanding). It is the decision of government officials (and not Buddhist monks) to make war.
Last edited by Holdan on Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Alex123
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by Alex123 »

Holdan wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Did the Buddha ever tell the king, "We need democracy, freedom for slaves, and no capital punishment"? No. Buddha took for granted the absolute power of the King, slavery, torture and capital punishment. The Buddha did not recommend this to the Bhikkhus.

He never outlawed army, etc.
You appear to have not comprehended Buddha. Buddha gave advice to those who sought it from him. Buddha did not evangelise publically. Also, I trust you are aware of the sutta about being a soldier, where Buddha explained the karmic consequences of being a soldier (Yodhajiva Sutta: To Yodhajiva (The Warrior)).
This is why there are Bhikkhus (who should stay out of politics and war) and soldiers whose job isn't exactly to give out cookies.
Holdan
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by Holdan »

Alex123 wrote:I am not sure if Theravada is "stronger" than Mahayana schools. Maybe because Muslims didn't get there.
Islam is in Thailand & Burma. What is called Malaysia was once Thai territory. I provided to example of how Buddhism was destroyed in Tibet. If the Tibetans were unable to escape to India then it would be extinct.
Holdan
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by Holdan »

Ajatashatru wrote:It is interesting to note that the Dalai Lama justified the testing of nuclear weapons by India in 1998. What is your guys take on that? Will you just not agree with his views because he is Vajrayana?
I do not need to be a Buddhist to disagree with Dalai Lama. :|
Holdan
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by Holdan »

Alex123 wrote:This is why there are Bhikkhus (who should stay out of politics and war) and soldiers whose job isn't exactly to give out cookies.
Finally, you acknowledged & confessed how wrong you & Ajatashatru were in your respective perverted views. Well done! :namaste:
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Alex123
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by Alex123 »

Holdan wrote:
Alex123 wrote:I am not sure if Theravada is "stronger" than Mahayana schools. Maybe because Muslims didn't get there.
Islam is in Thailand & Burma. What is called Malaysia was once Thai territory. I provided to example of how Buddhism was destroyed in Tibet. If the Tibetans were unable to escape to India then it would be extinct.
If they would have more power and follow what their "Holy" book teaches:
4:91 "Take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant."
2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/q ... rance.html
Holdan
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by Holdan »

Alex123 wrote:If they would have more power and follow what their "Holy" book teaches:
4:91 "Take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant."
2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/q ... rance.html
This is wrong view (micca ditti). Buddha explained violent karma leads to bad results. But you seem to be inferring an ethic of killing will lead to good results.

The violence within Islam has resulted in: (i) it being detested by the rest of the world; (ii) it, as a military political force, being defeated by the rest of the world; and (iii) its cultures & nations being characterised by in-fighting, civil wars, sectarian violence, dictators, etc. Imperialist political Islam eventually crumbled from within & from without. Yet you appear to fear it. Islam has nothing to fear but itself. Buddha has correctly explained violence & war do not bring beneficial results to any party. Imperialist political Islam is testament to this. It crumbled from a great culture into backwardness.

:sage:
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Ben
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by Ben »

I think this is a convenient point to close this discussion before the thread goes any further off-topic and becomes a vehicle to denigrate another spiritual path.
Thank you all for your input.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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