AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

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AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:55 am

AN 10.92 PTS: A v 182
Vera Sutta: Animosity
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu


What it takes for a lay person to become a stream-winner.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



Then Anathapindika the householder went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him, "When, for a disciple of the noble ones, five forms of fear & animosity are stilled; when he is endowed with the four factors of stream-entry; and when, through discernment, he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out the noble method, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'

"Now, which five forms of fear & animosity are stilled?

"When a person takes life, then with the taking of life as a requisite condition, he produces fear & animosity in the here & now, produces fear & animosity in future lives, experiences mental concomitants of pain & despair; but when he refrains from taking life, he neither produces fear & animosity in the here & now nor does he produce fear & animosity in future lives, nor does he experience mental concomitants of pain & despair: for one who refrains from taking life, that fear & animosity is thus stilled.

"When a person steals... engages in illicit sex... tells lies...

"When a person drinks distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness, then with the drinking of distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness as a requisite condition, he produces fear & animosity in the here & now, produces fear & animosity in future lives, experiences mental concomitants of pain & despair; but when he refrains from drinking distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness, he neither produces fear & animosity in the here & now nor does he produce fear & animosity in future lives, nor does he experience mental concomitants of pain & despair: for one who refrains from drinking distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness, that fear & animosity is thus stilled.

"These are the five forms of fear & animosity that are stilled.

"And which are the four factors of stream-entry with which he is endowed?

"There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with verified confidence in the Awakened One: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy & rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.'

"He is endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma: 'The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves.'

"He is endowed with verified confidence in the Sangha: 'The Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples who have practiced well... who have practiced straight-forwardly... who have practiced methodically... who have practiced masterfully — in other words, the four pairs, the eight individuals [1] — they are the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples: worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, the incomparable field of merit for the world.'

"He is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration.

"These are the four factors of stream-entry with which he is endowed.

"And which is the noble method that he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out through discernment?

"There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones notices: When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.

"In other words: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"This is the noble method that he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out through discernment.

"When, for a disciple of the noble ones, these five forms of fear & animosity are stilled; when he is endowed with these four factors of stream-entry; and when, through discernment, he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out this noble method, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'"


Note

1. The four pairs are (1) the person on the path to stream-entry, the person experiencing the fruit of stream-entry; (2) the person on the path to once-returning, the person experiencing the fruit of once-returning; (3) the person on the path to non-returning, the person experiencing the fruit of non-returning; (4) the person on the path to arahantship, the person experiencing the fruit of arahantship. The eight individuals are the eight types forming these four pairs.

See also:
AN 5.179: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"Into the Stream" (Study Guide): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... tream.html
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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Postby Sam Vara » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:59 am

Many thanks for this one, not just because it is another new one as far as I am concerned, but also because it is very clear with regard to the conditions for stream-entry. I love the bit "then if he wants he may state about himself:" - mentioning it to others is optional!

What do you think about the "fear and animosity" being linked to the maintenance of the precepts? Is the Buddha saying here that unless the action produces fear and animosity (now or in future lives) then it is not a significant breach of the precepts? This would mean that there could conceivably be some actions which might be considered immoral in our culture but which were not breaking the precepts. For example, taking the not given from a rich person or organisation who did not know about the theft, or did not care, could be condoned; providing one was acting with a clear conscience. The same might apply to sexual misconduct, or substances that lead to heedlessness. If no sentient beings including oneself are harmed....

On the other hand (and my conditioning makes me favour this one!) the Buddha might be merely reiterating that there will be unpleasant vedana from unskillful kamma, and that some degree of "fear and animosity" are the inevitable outcome of such actions. But that is a bit perplexing, because he seems to have also dealt with that aspect in saying that there will be concomitant pain and despair. Consider the case of a being who steals, or commits sexual misconduct, or gets high without the possibility of a hangover. Let's suppose that they don't know what they are doing is breaking a precept, and do it blithely and unconcernedly. No other beings object to what they do - they steal from magnanimous "victims" who are glad for them, and party with willing playmates. I can accept that there might be kammic payback in terms of pain or despair, but does anything about this situation mean that there must be "fear and animosity" involved?
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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Postby Martin Po » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:32 pm

Sam Vara wrote:What do you think about the "fear and animosity" being linked to the maintenance of the precepts?


It mean that the fruit of stream-entry break and uproot some part of defilements of mind, there is no more conditions in the one's mind to manifestation of such unwholesome actions like: killing, stealing, liying, drinking and sexual misconduct. There is no more ground no more condiitons to such phenomenas. One's mind is purified.
Greed, hatred and delusion's trees was cut off, underground root is remain, but there is no more shadow of greed, of hatred of delusion, no more fruit of greed, hatred, and delusion.

It's not full-liberation, it's a moment when practice begun, when practitioner step on the Eightfold Path firmly, and slant and slope toward Nibbana, he see his destination, and go to his destination.
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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:41 pm

Hi Sam,
Sam Vara wrote:What do you think about the "fear and animosity" being linked to the maintenance of the precepts? Is the Buddha saying here that unless the action produces fear and animosity (now or in future lives) then it is not a significant breach of the precepts? ...

You make some interesting points, but, to me, it sounds like a complicated way of reading it. I took the statements as simply an elaboration of the bad kamma of actions that break the precepts:
"When a person takes life, then with the taking of life as a requisite condition, he produces fear & animosity in the here & now, produces fear & animosity in future lives, experiences mental concomitants of pain & despair;...

AN 9.27 is quite similar, but talks about the elimination of enmity (Bhikkhu Bodhi translation):
For one who abstains from the destruction of life, that peril and enmity has thus been eliminated....


:anjali:
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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Postby Sam Vara » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:15 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Sam,
Sam Vara wrote:What do you think about the "fear and animosity" being linked to the maintenance of the precepts? Is the Buddha saying here that unless the action produces fear and animosity (now or in future lives) then it is not a significant breach of the precepts? ...

You make some interesting points, but, to me, it sounds like a complicated way of reading it. I took the statements as simply an elaboration of the bad kamma of actions that break the precepts:
"When a person takes life, then with the taking of life as a requisite condition, he produces fear & animosity in the here & now, produces fear & animosity in future lives, experiences mental concomitants of pain & despair;...

AN 9.27 is quite similar, but talks about the elimination of enmity (Bhikkhu Bodhi translation):
For one who abstains from the destruction of life, that peril and enmity has thus been eliminated....


:anjali:

Mike

You are probably right, but I'm interested in the fact that the fear and animosity are different from the "mental concomitants" of pain and despair. So if one takes life, then one produces fear and animosity; which in turn is productive of the pain and despair. Two links here rather than the one required by kamma-vipaka.

The AN 9.27 quote is indeed similar, in that the key here is the danger felt by another sentient being, and the ill-will that this causes.

So is AN 8.39, in that the person keeping the precepts removes some part of the danger and oppression and suffering that other sentient beings could experience:

a disciple of the noble ones, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from taking life. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression.


This is apparently a consequentialist ethic, where the harm experienced by the recipient of one's actions is the salient feature.
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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:36 pm

Thanks for the interesting ideas Sam. Here is part of Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation (he uses enmity instead of animosity in this sutta as well as 9.27):
“What are the five perils and enmities that have been eliminated? [183] (1) Householder, one who destroys life, with the destruction of life as condition, creates peril and enmity pertaining to the present life and peril and enmity pertaining to future lives, and he also experiences mental pain and dejection. One who abstains from the destruction of life does not create such peril and enmity pertaining to the present life or such peril and enmity pertaining to future lives, nor does he experience mental pain and dejection. For one who abstains from the destruction of life, that peril and enmity has thus been eliminated.

This translation suggest that the "mental pain and dejection" are in parallel to the "peril and enmity" that one who destroys life causes, not a result of that peril and enmity.

:anjali:
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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Postby Sam Vara » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:46 pm

This translation suggest that the "mental pain and dejection" are in parallel to the "peril and enmity" that one who destroys life causes, not a result of that peril and enmity.


Possibly. It doesn't say that they are not the result, and there is still the question of why the two are separated. "Mental pain and dejection" seem more like the vipaka experienced as a result of ones kammically potent actions, whereas the "peril and enmity" seem to apply to some other being; the one that is potentially imperilled and made an enemy by one's actions. I added the bit below to my previous post:

So is AN 8.39, in that the person keeping the precepts removes some part of the danger and oppression and suffering that other sentient beings could experience:

a disciple of the noble ones, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from taking life. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression.



This is apparently a consequentialist ethic, where the harm experienced by the recipient of one's actions is the salient feature. It might still be the case that "no harm done (= peril & enmity), then no later suffering (mental pain & dejection)".
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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Postby santa100 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:43 am

Comparing Ven. Thanissaro's version of:
When a person takes life, then with the taking of life as a requisite condition, he produces fear & animosity in the here & now, produces fear & animosity in future lives, experiences mental concomitants of pain & despair; but when he refrains from taking life, he neither produces fear & animosity in the here & now nor does he produce fear & animosity in future lives, nor does he experience mental concomitants of pain & despair: for one who refrains from taking life, that fear & animosity is thus stilled


to Ven. Bodhi's version of:
one who destroys life, with the destruction of life as condition, creates peril and enmity pertaining to the present life and peril and enmity pertaining to future lives, and he also experiences mental pain and dejection. One who abstains from the destruction of life does not create such peril and enmity pertaining to the present life or such peril and enmity pertaining to future lives, nor does he experience mental pain and dejection. For one who abstains from the destruction of life, that peril and enmity has thus been eliminated


Ven. Bodhi's AN's note offers some insight to the word choice between the versions:
On bhayam veram pasavati, Mp says that one obtains the peril of mental fright (cittutrasabhayam; this favors understanding bhaya as subjective fear rather than objective peril, though I think the latter is actually intended) and enmity as a person (puggalaveram). Spk II 73,17–33, commenting on SN 12:41, gives a fuller explanation: “Peril and enmity are one in meaning. Enmity is twofold, external and internal. For if one has killed someone’s father, the other thinks: ‘They say he killed my father; I will kill him.’ So the latter takes a sharp knife and pursues the former. The volition arisen in him is called the external enmity [in relation to the future victim]. But the other hears, ‘He’s coming to kill me’ and decides: ‘I’ll kill him first.’ This is called the internal enmity [in relation to himself]. They both pertain to this present life. When the warden of hell sees the murderer reborn in hell, the volition arises in him: ‘I’ll take a blazing iron hammer and strike him’: this is the external enmity pertaining to the future life. And the volition that arises in the victim, ‘He’s coming to strike me though I’m faultless; I’ll strike him first,’ is the internal enmity pertaining to the future life. The external enmity is what is called ‘enmity as a person’ in the [old] Commentary


Whether the mental pain&dejection comes at the same time or come after the peril&enmity probably varies depends on the situation. For example, John Doe who just killed Jim Roe to avenge the death of his father who was killed by Jim Roe probably didn't feel the mental pain&dejection immediately. He might actually felt quite elated at that moment now that justice has been done to Jim Roe! In another case, Jim Roe came home from work and caught John Doe having an affair with his wife, a fight ensued and John Doe killed Jim Roe. In that case, John probably felt the mental pain&dejection right away..
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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Postby lyndon taylor » Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:17 am

To me what is interesting is the passage about how when consciousness dissapears(cessation of consciousness), name and form(and concept of the self????) dissapear, makes me wonder if this whole no self thing is something occuring during meditation, rather than everyday functioning existence, because I don't see how we could function everday things(as opposed to meditation) if we had no consciouness(or absolutely no self at all). Certainly we would not be able to type at a computer keyboard without some level of consciousness, however restrained or mindful.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:26 am

santa100
Whether the mental pain&dejection comes at the same time or come after the peril&enmity probably varies depends on the situation


Yes, it might do. But it might also be the case that the mental pain and dejection is felt by the person who acts (i.e. are the vipaka attendant on that person's kamma); whereas the peril and enmity are an objective situation created by the action, in the sense that killing another living being puts them in peril and creates an enemy out of them.

According to Thanissaro, the fear and animosity are produced (not felt or experienced). According to BB, they are created - not felt or experienced. But for both translators, the mental pain and dejection are experienced.

So it might be that the difference between these two results is not a matter of timing, but something more fundamental.
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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Postby Martin Po » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:20 am

lyndon taylor wrote:To me what is interesting is the passage about how when consciousness dissapears(cessation of consciousness), name and form(and concept of the self????) dissapear, makes me wonder if this whole no self thing is something occuring during meditation, rather than everyday functioning existence, because I don't see how we could function everday things(as opposed to meditation) if we had no consciouness(or absolutely no self at all). Certainly we would not be able to type at a computer keyboard without some level of consciousness, however restrained or mindful.


When there is object and eye-contact, there is eye-consciousness.
So, if there is no object, or no contact, there is no consciousness thought by Buddha.

As i understand, it refers to this statement: "in reference to the seen, there will be only the seen." This-way-practice "destroy" object, destroy condition to arising of consciousness, and there is no more consciousness due to defilements, but just consciousness due to old kamma of this body.
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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Postby lyndon taylor » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:42 am

Quote from The OPs scripture quote;

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."


i'm just saying it seems this is something that, as it is written, could only be fully accomplished while meditating, as opposed to in everyday life, although of course elements of it could be incorporated into everyday life.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Postby Martin Po » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:54 am

There is passage in MN 28, which explain your question:

"Now if internally the eye is intact but externally forms do not come into range, nor is there a corresponding engagement, then there is no appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness. If internally the eye is intact and externally forms come into range, but there is no corresponding engagement, then there is no appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness. But when internally the eye is intact and externally forms come into range, and there is a corresponding engagement, then there is the appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness.
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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Postby lyndon taylor » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:00 am

In other word you wouldn't want to drive your car down the road with out consciousness or sense perception!!!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Postby Martin Po » Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:42 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:In other word you wouldn't want to drive your car down the road with out consciousness or sense perception!!!!


This body "background" consciousness remain until death, but as sutta said, if there is no "corresponding engagement" in seen, heared, tasted, smeld, sensed, cognised, so there is no consciousness based upon all seen, heared, tasted, smeld, sensed, cognised potential namarupas, it's because, for the "background" body coinsciousness, there is no more divercity, no more namarupa. Consciousness is purified by equanimity.
Seen is just seen, sensed is just sensed cognised is just cognised etc. There is no "engagement", no contact.

Like a car, which clutch is depressed, not moves; in the same way eye-ear-nose-teste-body-mind contact is absent, and "engaged" in dependent origination consciousness is no more present.

When there is ignorance - there is craving (instability); when there is craving (instability) - there is consciousness; when there is consciousness - there is namarupa; when there is namarupa - there is consciousness.
Consciousness present only in movement, when there is no movement (no craving, no instability, no "falling to stability") so there is no consiousness. After death of the body, nothing remain.

Perharps i not realy understand what is your queston about, and my answers have no sens it term of your question. Perharps i'am wrong.
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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Postby santa100 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:54 pm

Sam Vara wrote:According to Thanissaro, the fear and animosity are produced (not felt or experienced). According to BB, they are created - not felt or experienced. But for both translators, the mental pain and dejection are experienced


According to Spk II 73,17–33, commenting on SN 12:41 where enmity (internal/external) is the "volition arisen in one", it touches the volitional aspect of the mental factors (cetasika) when it mentions peril&enmity, while for mental pain&dejection it seems to touch the feeling/perception aspect of cetasika.
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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:45 pm

santa100 wrote:
Sam Vara wrote:According to Thanissaro, the fear and animosity are produced (not felt or experienced). According to BB, they are created - not felt or experienced. But for both translators, the mental pain and dejection are experienced


According to Spk II 73,17–33, commenting on SN 12:41 where enmity (internal/external) is the "volition arisen in one", it touches the volitional aspect of the mental factors (cetasika) when it mentions peril&enmity, while for mental pain&dejection it seems to touch the feeling/perception aspect of cetasika.


Ah, thanks, that's really helpful. What about the volitional aspect of sexual misconduct, or taking the not given? That would not seem to be enmity/animosity, but forms of lust.
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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:51 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:Quote from The OPs scripture quote;

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."


i'm just saying it seems this is something that, as it is written, could only be fully accomplished while meditating, as opposed to in everyday life, although of course elements of it could be incorporated into everyday life.

Hi Lyndon,

You might find previous discussions on suttas from the Nidana-samyutta — Paticcasamuppada (dependent co-arising) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .html#sn12 of interest:

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=10553
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=10845
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11034
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11403
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11574
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11701
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11836
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11987
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=12133
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=12266
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=12444
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=12606
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11269

As you say, understanding the process is not trivial, and there are various ways of interpreting it.

:anjali:
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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:56 pm

I thought that it was interesting how in this sutta there is a clear connection between "this-that conditionality, and the detailed dependent-orgination sequence, with the latter an elaboration of the former:
"There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones notices: When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.

"In other words: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
...

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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:02 pm

And see this thread on the relationship between this-that conditionality and dependent origination:
Pali Term: Idappaccayatā
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=6014&p=252658#p252658

And the discussion here: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&p=252638#p252638

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