Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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BlackBird
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by BlackBird »

I think everyone should be given birth control through the water or something, and you have to pass a parenthood test to prove you're going to be able to provide everything the child needs, both materially and emotionally. Both means tests and character tests would have to be passed before you could have a child.

That way we control the massive overpopulation of this globe and we stop child abuse dead in it's tracks, and ensure that the vast majority of children grow up in loving and caring homes.

Honestly, without oil our planet can only support about 2 billion people. We're headed to 8 billion within the next 20 years, can we really afford to have 6 billion people die off from famine, disease etc when the oil runs out and we no longer have access to the fertalizers and pesticides we've used to generate the agricultural revolution?

I would rather gradually reduce the population by enforced birth control, than have people suffer through famine, war and epidemics.
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Ben
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by Ben »

Hi Jack

I think many of us have witnessed things and have worried about the state of the world and have from time to time considered similar solutions.
It looks like as a species we are arriving at a crunch. Something has got to give - that is for sure.
What I have noticed is that as societies have developed a middle class and generally increased in prosperity, birth rates go down.
kind regards,

Ben
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dagon
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by dagon »

Ben wrote:Hi Jack

I think many of us have witnessed things and have worried about the state of the world and have from time to time considered similar solutions.
It looks like as a species we are arriving at a crunch. Something has got to give - that is for sure.
What I have noticed is that as societies have developed a middle class and generally increased in prosperity, birth rates go down.
kind regards,

Ben
hi Ben, Jack

as both individuals and a species we do need to think about solutions but maybe we should contemplate the wisdom of Buddhas teaching in this matter as with all matters. Yes we are clearly approaching a time where conditions are going to become more "hellish". I do not know so maybe some more knowable than me can help me. Are the conditions of our collective live in a reflection of out collective karma. i know that pondering karma outcomes is considered to be fruitless and a diversion from our real business of trying to break the cycle for our selves and showing compassion for other. As usual i don't remember to source, help.

My limited understanding of what Buddha taught was that he provided us with the path he found with his enlightenment, and that it was our free choice if we chose to take the refuges and follow the path. Because of this, imposed solutions do not appear to sit comfortably with me. An imposed solution of the model describes would require that people make choices about the suitability of others to be parents - choices that would be making of unenlightened people. if economic conditions were one of the determining factors then generally those most motivated by greed would be the most likely to qualify !

Yes the world and its material resources are becoming more stressed, of that there can be no question. as some one who aspires to bring the teaching of The Buddha in to my life i find it hard to believe that running short of pesticides is such a bad thing - many aspects of the green revolution are negative. before i am considered to be uncaring there are other solutions that we did not know of at the time of the green Revelation - SRI method rice cultivation is one that comes to mind and sits more comfortably with my beliefs.

Ben i total agree that there is a direct correlation between increasing middle-class and lower family size - but is this caused by wealth or education. Not withstanding that, maybe if there was more compassion and giving to those in more need would this not life the living standards of the poorest who all to often have the large families that they can not support.

With respect and Metta
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SarathW
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by SarathW »

appicchato wrote:
SarathW wrote:
appicchato wrote:All for it...
Do you mean human animal too? :)
Earth's human population is on the short list of things that will (if the current trend continues) doom us sooner rather than later...it's a proposition (to me) definitely worth considering... :pig:
---------------
It seems becoming a father or mother is not such bad thing. :)
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I tell you, monks, there are two people who are not easy to repay. Which two? Your mother & father. Even if you were to carry your mother on one shoulder & your father on the other shoulder for 100 years, and were to look after them by anointing, massaging, bathing, & rubbing their limbs, and they were to defecate & urinate right there (on your shoulders), you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. If you were to establish your mother & father in absolute sovereignty over this great earth, abounding in the seven treasures, you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. Why is that? Mother & father do much for their children. They care for them, they nourish them, they introduce them to this world. But anyone who rouses his unbelieving mother & father, settles & establishes them in conviction; rouses his unvirtuous mother & father, settles & establishes them in virtue; rouses his stingy mother & father, settles & establishes them in generosity; rouses his foolish mother & father, settles & establishes them in discernment [§117]: To this extent one pays & repays one's mother & father.

— AN 2.31-32

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Kumara
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by Kumara »

Thanks to all who contributed to this topic. It obvious that most of you are supportive of neutering, though some of you also voice a concern on whether it is right.

When I first heard of this, I immediately disliked the idea. I thought, "I wouldn't want this to be done to me." Later I questioned that initial response. The arguments for it sounds reasonable. I thought, "Have I decided against it because of an attachment to old views?" Yet, it still didn't sit well in my mind, though it did soften my initial viewpoint.

I wonder: Shouldn't we consider this to be inflicting violence on another? Since the rationale is overpopulation, and humans are heading in that direction too (as some of you noted), would you neuter your children (if you have them)?

I thought about why well-meaning people would make special effort to neuter animals, and the reason is clear: They believe that it would reduce suffering. This seems to make perfect sense, especially in places where there are a lot of unwanted strays. Neutering them would prevent birth of more strays, which being unwanted would likely live a miserable life. The prevented suffering would be greater than the suffering of neutering, right?

So, it makes sense. However, this is only true within the materialistic world view. When we take into account a larger world view of kamma and rebirth, we may question if suffering is actually reduced.

Say that dog in the picture provided earlier. If one of his parents were neutered, would he come to being as a dog? Not as an offspring due to their copulation, but with his kamma to be born as a dog of a miserable life, he would be born elsewhere to experience the results of his kamma, right?

Let's say even those other dogs are neutered. Let's say *all* unwanted strays are neutered. It's an improbable prospect, but let's just say that the neutering projects around the world has been that successful. What happens to the kamma of all the unborn dogs with kamma waiting to be ripen?
... whatever action is done out of greed, hatred or delusion ... will ripen wherever the individual is reborn; and wherever the action ripens, there the individual experiences the fruit, be it in this life, or in the next life, or in subsequent future lives.
~ Nidana Sutta (AN 3.34) From Bhikkhu Bodhi’s Numerical Discourses of the Buddha, p. 49-50
So, even without any dogs to be born into, the law of kamma will find its way. Right?

Anyway, this is my tentative view. Please feel free to contradict.
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by daverupa »

Kumara wrote:Anyway, this is my tentative view. Please feel free to contradict.
I consider, on the grounds that it requires us to speculate on the precise working-out of kamma, it is probably a flawed way to approach public policy.

This world is the only one which has the ability to generate a working consensus among individuals who otherwise disagree in terms of their post-death views, e.g. "that person is malnourished", "these piglets are starving to death because the mother is not producing milk", "spaying and neutering prevents many deaths which would otherwise result in suffering due to various factors as observed", and so forth.

It is in the realm of pre-birth-post-death statements where disagreements will arise, precisely because observations and perceptions differ. Certainly I am reminded of the various problems with such grounds for views, as discussed in the Brahmajala Sutta, and I cannot imagine that confrontation and argument in an attempt to resolve these metaphysical disagreements amongst us humans can be claimed to be doing any animal any good.

So, given this world and the causes and conditions which happen within its bounds as consensus reality, we can directly know that spaying and neutering domestic animals is well endured by them, is for their (plural) greater well-being in terms of living conditions, and prevents the birth of animals into situations where their requisites are hard to come by.

Finally, we must consider the human animal. Overpopulation is a serious problem. Certainly a collective human effort would be ideal, but without this level of communication and agreement being possible, does government action become appropriate? Or is this solely an individual choice? Is the answer to enforce a child-bearing limit? Can people get spayed/neutered and transfer their breeding credits to someone who wants a larger family? What about children born anyway, to those who ignore such attempts? Don't they unduly benefit from the sacrifice of others, and continue the problem by out-breeding those who are trying to plan ahead?

For humans, able to see the problem and discuss it, communication is the way forward, and the first step is to have the conversation with everyone. We can see the harm it causes animals, who also act as though they are unaware of the problem and its solution, so we know what is in store for us. While we have the discussion about what to do for the human animal, we can recognize spaying & neutering as a solution appropriate to domestic animals, with observable benefits and an observed decrease in suffering for them.

(For comprehensive coverage: wild animals come under our ethical responsibility as a result of anthropogenic climate change; both wild and domestic animals according to whether the animal is eaten & various domestic-wild interactions. These topics have threads already.)

Perhaps we can make this world with its Dhamma dispensation a place where unpleasant kammavipaka comes to fruition less often & where beings arise who will be keen on the training, neh?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by Kumara »

Perhaps this little story may shed some light.

During a Dhamma discussion, a woman who owns the beautiful retreat I was staying in told me about the strange behaviour of her pair of golden retrievers. She said she did everything according to expert advice on dog breeding. Yet, after more than a year, nothing happened. She said, "They never have that kind of action."

Nothing seems wrong with them physically. In fact, fomr time to time there would be a whole gang of dogs barking and howling at the gate, eager to get in. You probably know that it means the female was on heat then. So, she's not barren. And another odd thing is that the male would guard at the gate, while the female would lie flat on the ground. The 2 seemed to have a platonic relationship. They weren't interested in sex at all--neither with each other or with others.

At this juncture, another woman who owns a sundry shop in the outskirt of town chipped in to say that the village dog at her area recently had 9 at one go.

So, I wonder how far humans can play God. Could humans who neuter animals out, believing that they are doing good, be making unskilful actions based on a limited knowledge?

I don't think I can change your view on this, and I don't intend to. Nonetheless, I provide these thoughts for you to think about the matter.
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by chankahyein »

I run an animal charity and one of our main missions is to encourage people to get street animals (as well as their own pets) neutered. We provide financial subsidies to help them. And yes, I call myself a Buddhist (but if "KIndness" were a religion, I'd much prefer that). In the course of running this charity, we have seen unneutered animals suffer from pyometra (infection of the womb) and obstructed labour, both which cause agonising death, both of which can be prevented if the female animal had been spayed. We have also seen testicular and prostate cancers, ovarian cancer, breast cancer, etc., many animals dying on the streets due to "natural" breeding, entire litter of infant street animals dying of diseases such as distemper, tick fever, parvovirus, etc. Dogs and cats, unlike humans, do not menopause - they continue breeding until the day they die. In Malaysia, local councils practise capture-and-kill as their method of control of the street animal population.
So, as a Buddhist (if I may call myself one), my take on neutering is a resounding "YES" if our intention is to prevent further births and more suffering on the street.
In living this mundane life, there is the ideal and the practical course of action. I believe to strike a balance between the two, compassion is the answer.
Here is a recent case that we encountered: http://myanimalcare.org/2013/07/07/an-o ... og-spayed/ (you may want to scroll to the last paragraph).
Thank you.
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by daverupa »

chankahyein wrote:I run an animal charity and one of our main missions is to encourage people to get street animals (as well as their own pets) neutered. We provide financial subsidies to help them. And yes, I call myself a Buddhist (but if "KIndness" were a religion, I'd much prefer that). In the course of running this charity, we have seen unneutered animals suffer from pyometra (infection of the womb) and obstructed labour, both which cause agonising death, both of which can be prevented if the female animal had been spayed. We have also seen testicular and prostate cancers, ovarian cancer, breast cancer, etc., many animals dying on the streets due to "natural" breeding, entire litter of infant street animals dying of diseases such as distemper, tick fever, parvovirus, etc. Dogs and cats, unlike humans, do not menopause - they continue breeding until the day they die. In Malaysia, local councils practise capture-and-kill as their method of control of the street animal population.
So, as a Buddhist (if I may call myself one), my take on neutering is a resounding "YES" if our intention is to prevent further births and more suffering on the street.
In living this mundane life, there is the ideal and the practical course of action. I believe to strike a balance between the two, compassion is the answer.
Here is a recent case that we encountered: http://myanimalcare.org/2013/07/07/an-o ... og-spayed/ (you may want to scroll to the last paragraph).
Thank you.
:goodpost:

It goes to the point:
So, given this world and the causes and conditions which happen within its bounds as consensus reality, we can directly know that spaying and neutering domestic animals is well endured by them, is for their (plural) greater well-being in terms of living conditions, and prevents the birth of animals into situations where their requisites are hard to come by.

It is in the realm of pre-birth-post-death statements where disagreements will arise...
:group:
Last edited by daverupa on Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by Kumara »

Interesting to see you here, Kah Yein. Welcome to the forum.

Folks, this is the person I heard from when I said "When I first heard of this". Kah Yein has in the past very gently tried to make me reconsider my view on this, and I did. Then upon further consideration I have reverted to the original view.

I've no doubt that the certain suffering "can be prevented if the female animal had been spayed", but would we extend this spaying to humans too, esp those in living in conditions similar to these animals? Can we say that all women who died giving birth would have been spared of the ordeal and death if they had been spayed too?

I agree that compassion is the answer. I'm questioning though if neutering is actually the better than not from a larger perspective.

I'd like to add that despite our longtime, clear disagreement on this matter, Kah Yein and I have remained friends, though I wonder how much longer.... :-\
daverupa
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by daverupa »

Kumara wrote:would we extend this spaying to humans too
There is no need to make this leap, though a conversation about human population should begin to occur.

Animals, however, experience a severe problem with a solution that has clear benefits here and now, as above; to make reference to a speculative view of any kind is simply unethical in the face of this consensus reality.

:anjali:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by pilgrim »

Kumara wrote:
I've no doubt that the certain suffering "can be prevented if the female animal had been spayed", but would we extend this spaying to humans too, esp those in living in conditions similar to these animals? Can we say that all women who died giving birth would have been spared of the ordeal and death if they had been spayed too?

I agree that compassion is the answer. I'm questioning though if neutering is actually the better than not from a larger perspective.
Spaying an animal, apart from the short term distress, does not hurt the animal. Unlike humans, they have no concept of parenthood and do not long for unborn children or desire to have the security of a family. The harm that one does in spaying an animal has little comparison to a similar procedure on humans. A spayed animal is quite oblivious to the fact

Even so, if I had a daughter who is mentally challenged and in her ignorance of biological consequences habitually fornicates, I would fit her with some device or give her birth control pills to prevent unwanted pregnancies. In effect this would be spaying her through mechanical or chemical means as opposed to surgery.

Yes spaying has karmic consequences. But like many acts in this world, it is an action of mixed karma and in my view,the good intentions far outweigh the bad karma. When we see deplorable conditions, and in our desire to protect ourselves from any possible consequences, refuse to act or provide help, that our selfish and self-cherishing thoughts manifest.
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by SarathW »

"Spaying an animal, apart from the short term distress"
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How do you know. My experience with these animals is that they suffer life time!

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I think answer to OP depend on your personal objectives.
Are you a Vet, Animal breeder, council worker or monk etc.
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by pilgrim »

SarathW wrote:"Spaying an animal, apart from the short term distress"
------------------------
How do you know. My experience with these animals is that they suffer life time!

---------------------------
I think answer to OP depend on your personal objectives.
Are you a Vet, Animal breeder, council worker or monk etc.
I have a pet spayed bitch and have kept dogs since childhood, Many of them were similarly spayed. My family's first pet bitch was a stray dog. She was in heat and fleeing the advances of dogs, until she was cowering in a drain. We took her in, spayed her and gave her a life. Since then, most of our pet dogs have been spayed bitches. Can you pls elaborate how spayed animals suffer a life time?
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Kumara
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by Kumara »

daverupa wrote:
Kumara wrote:would we extend this spaying to humans too
There is no need to make this leap, though a conversation about human population should begin to occur.
Animals, however, experience a severe problem with a solution that has clear benefits here and now, as above; to make reference to a speculative view of any kind is simply unethical in the face of this consensus reality.
:anjali:
It's not meant to be speculative. It's asking if we should do upon animals what we would (probably) not do upon humans.
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