Dhamma Ending Age

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Dhamma Ending Age

Postby Will » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:05 pm

In Mahayana there are teachings about the symptoms of the end of the Dharma dispensation. After reading some here about this Dhammakaya group, I thought that sure fits in with Dharma Ending Era that Mahayana sutras report.

But, aside from the fact that the Sasana of our Buddha is impermanent, are there any suttas that lay out the signs of degeneration of said Dhamma?
This noble eightfold path is the ancient path traveled by all the Buddhas of eons past. Nagara Sutta
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby reflection » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:18 pm

I know of this one sutta. There may well be more.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

The signs it speaks about are a loss of respect for the teacher, dhamma, sangha, training or samadhi.
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby Will » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:42 am

reflection wrote:I know of this one sutta. There may well be more.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

The signs it speaks about are a loss of respect for the teacher, dhamma, sangha, training or samadhi.


Thank you for the source!
This noble eightfold path is the ancient path traveled by all the Buddhas of eons past. Nagara Sutta
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby reflection » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:24 pm

Will wrote:
reflection wrote:I know of this one sutta. There may well be more.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

The signs it speaks about are a loss of respect for the teacher, dhamma, sangha, training or samadhi.


Thank you for the source!

You're welcome. :anjali:
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby John1122 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:54 pm

Thanks
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby BlackBird » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:53 am

I don't think we're there yet. The internet has given birth to a new age of Dhamma propagation. Millions of people have access to Dhamma instructions and texts that they never had before it's advent. I know everything I do today because at 15 years of age I was curious about Buddhism and looked it up on wikipedia, if it were not for that I wouldn't be here today posting this. I imagine there are many others like me, who never would have come to Buddhism if it wasn't for the ease of attaining information. The information revolution has been the best thing that's happened to the Dhamma in many hundred of years.

There is a lot of corruption in the Sasana, but then there is also a lot of dilligent practitioners.

I think we're a ways off this dhamma ending age, and it makes me glad.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby mirco » Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:15 am

Chris got us this one

cooran wrote:The Dharma-ending Age by Piya Tan
http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... -proto.pdf


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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby Will » Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:27 am

mirco wrote:Chris got us this one

cooran wrote:The Dharma-ending Age by Piya Tan
http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... -proto.pdf


Regards
:alien:


Most excellent - this should cover the ground.

Blackbird is too optimistic. But I do think that wherever there are persons or groups, monastics or lay folk, who practice with correct understanding, ethics & meditation - there will be a living Dharma - not a Dharma ending age. These groups, over time, will get smaller and fewer in number, but how rapidly or slowly this happens all depends on our devotion to the Triple Jewel.
This noble eightfold path is the ancient path traveled by all the Buddhas of eons past. Nagara Sutta
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby BlackBird » Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:36 am

Will wrote:
Blackbird is too optimistic. But I do think that wherever there are persons or groups, monastics or lay folk, who practice with correct understanding, ethics & meditation - there will be a living Dharma - not a Dharma ending age. These groups, over time, will get smaller and fewer in number, but how rapidly or slowly this happens all depends on our devotion to the Triple Jewel.


Not trying to be a dick, but can you just talk to me rather than speaking of me in the 3rd person? Maybe I'm being a bit precious but it seems kind of rude to talk around someone when you could just as easily have addressed them personally.

You think I'm optimistic by saying that the advent of the internet has spread Dhamma far and wide and has allowed it to reach places it never would have otherwise? I think that's factual man, not a case of optimism. If you've been following my posts I've been making a big deal out of Sangha corruption lately, it is a real problem, but we as a community have the power to stand up to it. We have the power to bring change in this world. We can band together and make it known that there's certain things we're not going to accept anymore.

I'm not just gonna sit by and let the Dhamma fade away. I'm going to practice ardently, and I will speak loudly in favour of anyone who does likewise. The Dhamma has ebbed and flowed over millenia, I don't think it's done yet, and I think your pessimism isn't helpful, despite having (admittedly) some reason to think that way.

with metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby Will » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:13 am

You are being, not trying to be, a dick Blackbird. (Ego assuaged now?)

This is not a private discussion, there are others reading and I am addressing the notion expressed; not the fact that THE BLACKBIRD posted it.
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby BlackBird » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:37 am

Will wrote:You are being, not trying to be, a dick Blackbird. (Ego assuaged now?)

This is not a private discussion, there are others reading and I am addressing the notion expressed; not the fact that THE BLACKBIRD posted it.


There's not much ego involved man, I just thought it was a weird call to make. You addessed my post entirely, but did so without addressing the person involved, but rather did it by saying essentially: "This person over here, he's being optimistic"

Maybe it was petty to bring it up. It's just something I wouldn't do myself. Perhaps that's a reflection of different cultures and upbringings.

But be that as it may, now we've got this out the road can we return to the discussion at hand, perhaps you could respond to some of the points that I actually made in that post?

I receieved a pm from a member requesting that I remove the post because the word dick has connotations with 'penis' and that I was in fact the one being rude. Furthermore apparently it's a TOS violation. Well we're (mostly) all adults here and at least where I come from, calling oneself a dick is not the worst thing in the world. If I have made an error of judgement then so be it, I am old enough and ugly enough to take the consequences for it and unless the moderation team decides to remove it, I will leave it there for all to see and judge for themselves :)

I am sorry if my post caused you or anyone else any offence Will, that wasn't my intention.

with metta to you Will, and others
Jack
Last edited by BlackBird on Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby Will » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:05 am

Relax Jack, your words are not offensive to me. What does bother me is the PC police that fuss over every syllable. Buddha said kamma is cetana - that is, intention or volition - and since almost no one really knows the heart or intent of another, I refuse to get my knickers in a knot (is that the Empire-correct slang?) over shadows on this screen. And I wish our fellow posters would also not be so small-minded.

As to the point, of course the Internet has spread information about the Dhamma. But info is not practice or ethics or understanding. So I am pessimistic about the alleged transformative power of any medium, per se.

Progress needs many factors and I see the key ones, devotion to the Triple Jewel, pure ethics, vigorous practice, respect for the tradition & one's guru, all of these are getting weaker overall. Yes, not everywhere, nor everyone, which is why I am optimistic that the downward slide can be slowed in and by some groups of lay folk - though monastics are the ones most responsible.

At any rate, I have not finished study of the paper that was linked above, so I must sign off now.
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby BlackBird » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:26 am

Will wrote:Relax Jack, your words are not offensive to me. What does bother me is the PC police that fuss over every syllable. Buddha said kamma is cetana - that is, intention or volition - and since almost no one really knows the heart or intent of another, I refuse to get my knickers in a knot (is that the Empire-correct slang?) over shadows on this screen. And I wish our fellow posters would also not be so small-minded.

As to the point, of course the Internet has spread information about the Dhamma. But info is not practice or ethics or understanding. So I am pessimistic about the alleged transformative power of any medium, per se.

Progress needs many factors and I see the key ones, devotion to the Triple Jewel, pure ethics, vigorous practice, respect for the tradition & one's guru, all of these are getting weaker overall. Yes, not everywhere, nor everyone, which is why I am optimistic that the downward slide can be slowed in and by some groups of lay folk - though monastics are the ones most responsible.

At any rate, I have not finished study of the paper that was linked above, so I must sign off now.


Thanks for your response Will

I am optimistic for more or less the same reasons you state above. I can only take myself for example, but as I said I am sure I am not alone in the fact that it is thanks to the internet - almost entirely that I have learned the Buddha's Dhamma (conceptually speaking) and applied it to my life with rigour. I understand what you mean when you say that information does not equal practice, but without it, there could never have been any to begin with, in my example anyway.

We can't sit here and quantify the effect the rise of the internet has had on Dhamma propagation or new followers, but I would warrant that it is by no means insignificant. Just look at the success of this place :)

In Thailand, this 'monk on a jet' scandal has sparked widespread public outrage. It might yet be the catalyst for positive change, and a refocussing of effort on the part of the ecclesiastics to stomp out such corruption. Or perhaps not, that remains to be seen. But I think a little bit of hope is not untowards. In the West Buddhism is growing fast. Apparently it is the fastest growing religion in Australia - From 200,000 to 358,000. Chances are that because of the non-traditional nature of Buddhists in Australia, they are more likely to be practitioners of meditation and sila. I think if you took a look at the statistics in the US and Uk/Europe, they would show similar trends.

I think there are a lot of positives here.

with metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby reflection » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:51 am

The sutta I introduced says the true Dhamma will not disappear as long as there is no counterfeit Dhamma. So there being more potential to spread the Dhamma is not necessarily making the Dhamma stronger as it'll also spread the counterfeit Dhamma just as much, if not more.
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby BlackBird » Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:05 am

reflection wrote:The sutta I introduced says the true Dhamma will not disappear as long as there is no counterfeit Dhamma. So there being more potential to spread the Dhamma is not necessarily making the Dhamma stronger as it'll also spread the counterfeit Dhamma just as much, if not more.


And what is the counterfeit Dhamma in your eyes Reflection?

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Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby reflection » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:26 pm

There is no one single counterfeit Dhamma, I think there are quite a few. Just look at how people and teachers disagree even on central doctrinal points. Whatever way one sees it, one has to admit there is no one dhamma anymore, as it was in the time of the Buddha. And it seems the more rapidly its spreading, the more different ideas arise. So from that angle the recent spread of the dhamma may not have been a good thing. Of course there are many angles to it.
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby Will » Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:34 pm

One example of fake Dhamma, are the Dhamma lite followers. They classify rebirth & deva realms as cultural trappings and simply toss them aside. That makes them adherents of wrong view - but they probably will find a way rationalize their notions as correct and the tradition (which they also are not fond of) as wrong.

Reflection has a very strong case.
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby binocular » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:48 pm

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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby mirco » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:42 pm


So, then we are at the very end...

Doesn't matter. Next Dhamma period will come for sure.

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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby BlackBird » Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:42 pm

Will wrote:One example of fake Dhamma, are the Dhamma lite followers. They classify rebirth & deva realms as cultural trappings and simply toss them aside. That makes them adherents of wrong view - but they probably will find a way rationalize their notions as correct and the tradition (which they also are not fond of) as wrong.

Reflection has a very strong case.



Yes we've been dealing with that at length recently Will it has become quite a popular stance of late.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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