The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:09 am

robertk wrote:thanks for your questions Tilt.
i am in japan this week but will be in bangkok from the 17th and have more time to devote.
I will try to give some replies in the meantime when I can.
It should be quite interesting, indeed.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby ancientbuddhism » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:12 pm

tiltbillings wrote: …Intellectual knowledge definitely has a role to play, but it is a subservient role.


This is key to Khun Sujin’s misunderstanding of the Dhamma. The schedules of analysis of paṭiccasamuppāda, which find expression through the schedules of pañcakkhandha, dhammā, dhātu etc. intrinsic to sammādiṭṭhi, are intended to work in tandem with the contemplative methods of sammāsati and sammāsamādhi. The former is unpacked for our understanding through the latter.
‘yaṃ kiñci dukkhaṃ uppajjamānaṃ uppajjati, sabbaṃ taṃ chandamūlakaṃ chandanidānaṃ. chando hi mūlaṃ dukkhassā’ti.’

“Whatever dukkha arises into existence, all arises rooted in chanda, chanda as its cause, chanda as the root of dukkha. – SN.42.11 Bhadrakasuttaṃ

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:34 pm

ancientbuddhism wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: …Intellectual knowledge definitely has a role to play, but it is a subservient role.


This is key to Khun Sujin’s misunderstanding of the Dhamma. The schedules of analysis of paṭiccasamuppāda, which find expression through the schedules of pañcakkhandha, dhammā, dhātu etc. intrinsic to sammādiṭṭhi, are intended to work in tandem with the contemplative methods of sammāsati and sammāsamādhi. The former is unpacked for our understanding through the latter.
Yes. And the Sujin method dismisses any attempt at cultivating "the contemplatives methods of sammāsati and sammāsamādhi" as being hopelessly and mistakenly driven by self-concept and lobha, which is a blatant and wholesale dismissal of all other forms of Dhamma practice other than what Sujin teaches. This dismissal is not a side comment by Sujin's overly enthusiastic followers. It is, rather, a we-have-it-right-everyone-else-has-it-wrong sectarianism that is very much part of the method Sujin teaches, coming directly from Sujin herself, as we can see in the directly above by robertk.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:40 am

ancientbuddhism wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: …Intellectual knowledge definitely has a role to play, but it is a subservient role.


This is key to Khun Sujin’s misunderstanding of the Dhamma. The schedules of analysis of paṭiccasamuppāda, which find expression through the schedules of pañcakkhandha, dhammā, dhātu etc. intrinsic to sammādiṭṭhi, are intended to work in tandem with the contemplative methods of sammāsati and sammāsamādhi. The former is unpacked for our understanding through the latter.


When there is understanding of Dhamma - whether one is istting, standing, walking or talking there is also sammasati and sammasamadhi.
Th eone who reveres the Dhamma will more and more see how deep and profound it is : and how beneficial it is to listen and contemplate Dhamma.
Sn 3.12
PTS: Sn 724-765
Dvayatanupassana Sutta
Now on that occasion — the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, the full-moon night — the Blessed One was sitting in the open air surrounded by the community of monks. Surveying the silent community of monks, he addressed them: "Monks, if there are any who ask, 'Your listening to teachings that are skillful, noble, leading onward, going to self-awakening is a prerequisite for what?'

they should be told, 'For the sake of knowing qualities of dualities as they actually are.' 'What duality are you speaking about?' 'This is stress. This is the origination of stress': this is one contemplation. 'This is the cessation of stress. This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': this is a second contemplation. For a monk rightly contemplating this duality in this way — heedful, ardent, & resolute — one of two fruits can be expected: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance — non-return."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



And while listening and considering there can be deeper Samadhi of the correct type growing
When, Bhikkhus, a Noble Disciple listens carefully to the Dhamma,
alert with keen ears,
attending to it as a matter of crucial concern, as something of vital
importance, directing
his entire mind to it, in that very moment the Five Mental Hindrances
are absent in him.
On that occasion the Seven Links to Awakening develop towards
complete fulfilment...>
Source (edited extract):
The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya.
Book [V: 95-6] section 46: The Links. 38: Unhindered

This all takes a great deal of effort, but it is only useful if it is the right effort..
:
One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort.
One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.
Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:50 am

robertk wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: …Intellectual knowledge definitely has a role to play, but it is a subservient role.


This is key to Khun Sujin’s misunderstanding of the Dhamma. The schedules of analysis of paṭiccasamuppāda, which find expression through the schedules of pañcakkhandha, dhammā, dhātu etc. intrinsic to sammādiṭṭhi, are intended to work in tandem with the contemplative methods of sammāsati and sammāsamādhi. The former is unpacked for our understanding through the latter.


When there is understanding of Dhamma - whether one is istting, standing, walking or talking there is also sammasati and sammasamadhi.
Th eone who reveres the Dhamma will more and more see how deep and profound it is : and how beneficial it is to listen and contemplate Dhamma.
And the Buddha neatly outlined a path of practice, a path of doing, that is far more than a mere intellectual understanding and a thinking about the Dhamma.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:55 am

robertk wrote:This all takes a great deal of effort, but it is only useful if it is the right effort..
:
One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort.
One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.
Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Indeed, a great deal of effort, which is exemplified, in the suttas, by a disciplined meditation practice, keeping the precepts, and actively following the rest of the Eightfold Path.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:56 am

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:06 pm

tiltbillings wrote:It seems, looking at how the followers of the Sujin method talk about their practice, that the Sujin method values what would be characterized as an accumulation of knowledge.


that depends, for some poeople it may be that way, for others it can go deeper. In general Sujin is careful to stress that Abhidhamma is here and now, not merely a subject in a book.
this is from a recored discussion in poland last year.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... age/131618
(Than Acharn, in Poland, 14th, aam, 1m)

And another thing is <?Pali/Thai word?>: Dhamma discussion, listening to Dhamma
- being it all about leading to more and more understanding so that it can
eliminate unwholesomeness and selfishness; - in order to
understand Dhamma;

because people today usually think that what they are reading is the
moment of studying Dhamma, but it's not, it's only studying *a subject on*
Dhamma, but not understanding what Dhamma is at all;


but now, since one knows
that at the time of the Buddha, he taught those who came to listen to him about
whatever appears, as reality, and that person can lead all those people who
considered and agreed whether seeing now is permanent or not, because a moment
of life, a moment in the circle of birth and death is this very moment -

each
moment forms up the whole samsara, not a single moment is out of it, otherwise
it wouldn't be samsara; so now at the moment of hearing a sound, when there's no
understanding it's passed with ignorance again, and attachment again,
unknowingly, because of the four aasava (accumulated defilements): kaama aasava
(of attachment to sensous objects), ditthi aasava (of wrong view), bhava aasava
(of being someone), and avijja aasava (of ignorance);

we couldn't understand
this at all if the Buddha, after his enlightenment, didn't tell us about what
appears so very fast, because it seems like everything is there for awhile, like
the sun now, and the visible object, but actually it's so rapid - only one
moment of citta cannot be imagined, but since it arises, the characteristic, how
can one know about it, whether there is citta or not, because the succession of
the arising and falling away of citta appears as - it sees and then it hears,
especially these, letting one know that there is a reality which can experience
an object, otherwise the world would not be seen - no one (would) know about the
world of sight now, and the world of sound, because without the arising and
falling away of realities there would be nothing at all appearing - no
experiencing; so the most important thing now is that not knowing that what is
appearing, because that experience, the citta, it's now the faculty of
experiencing; that's why there are many words for citta, like pandara (that
which is clear): citta itself does not like or dislike - it just experience,

but
it cannot arise without cetasikas, so we come to the conditions, from the very
beginning, that nothing can arise without conditions; so at this moment of
seeing, citta is the faculty of experiencing, but there must be many factors for
its arising, so there are many factors arising with this moment of seeing,


unknowingly; the Buddha didn't enlighten from his seeing's accumulation; (not)
by just knowing the truth for himself, but to share it with the others; because
anyone who doesn't understand realities is living in a blind world, not
understanding, just live and die, that's all; but in reality these are different
dhatus, citta is one dhatu, cetasikas are dhatus, everything is its own dhatu;


so now nobody know about the seven cetasikas which arise with this citta, why?
because even that which experiences is unknown as a reality - no self, no one
there; so by developing understanding, reading more and consider what the book
tells about now, this moment, we can condition right understanding from moment
to moment, to understand each reality more deeply; to see,

right now, it's
agreed that seeing sees and hearing hears, but that's only the idea, the
intellectual understanding from the one who has directly penetrated the truth of
this, and that can be developed too, for those who really know and understand
what is meant by reality or Dhamma.



TA: What is the first one? (of the blessings, in the Mangala Sutta)
, the reason to see the value of kusala
and the dangers of akusala; everything is a bit of accumulations, from aeons and
aeons before, that's why today there's one taken for Lukas, and what people take
for this or that person, but in reality they're all dhatus (elements), and when
you talk about dhatus - nobody can do anything to fire, or earth, or wind or
anything, because there are conditions for their arising, everything has
conditions for its arising; so if we don't know that association with wrong
persons is so dangerous, we might run into that danger by associating more and
more; that's why (the) one thing that one can associate with the wrong ones is
to help or to assist (them), not to follow their idea - just for the sake of
helping that person to be good, to have right understanding, but not to follow
that wrong understanding,

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:16 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:The colours are real (but arising and passingaway rapidly) the computer screen is not real
So one set of condition "things" is real, but another is not. What is meant by "real?"

In the visuddhimagga n
ote from the subcommentary explains Viii n. 68
In such passages as “Dhammas that are concepts (Dhs p.1, 1308) even a non-entity (abhavaa) is thus called a “dhamma” since it is borne (dhaariiyati) and affirmed (avadhaariiyatti) by knowledge. That kind of dhamma is excluded by his saying “Dhammas (means) individual essences”. The act of becoming (bhavana), which constitutes existingness (vijjamaanataa) in the ultimate sense, is essence (bhaava); it is with essence (saha bhaavena), thus it is an individual essence (sabhaava); the meaning is that it is possible (labbhamaanaruupa) in the true sense, in the ultimate sense. For these are called “dhammas (bearers)” because they bear (dhaarana) their own individual essences (sabhaava), and they are called “individual essences” in the sense already explained (Pm.282
)

thus dhammas like hardness or boredom or pleasant feeling are real in the ultimate sense but concepts like Person or computer are not real.
in the case of say the computer the trillions of kalapas that make up what we call a computer are real, but they arise and pass away, and are immediately replaced countless times in a split second.
the concept, like computer is a shadow of the actual elements.

so imho it is fundamental, the start even, (and end) to learn to see the nature of realities and how different concepts and realities are.
The commentary to the UDANA ( translation by Peter Masefield from PTS) (p71,vol1, enlightenment chapter)

QUOTE
"it is ignorance since it causes beings to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it is ignorance since it darts among those things which do not actually exist (i.e. men, women] and since it does not dart among those things that do exist [i.e. it cannot understand the khandas, paramattha dhammas]

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:43 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
L: <...> I appreciate your teaching so much because it's so natural, <...>, just
read and listen and the mind finds its own way by different moments, even if
it's very slow; but some people have their particular way of developing, <...>
and observe what happens in daily life, what do you think about this?

TA: Who is doing this?

L: A self.

TA: Ok, so that is not the way to eradicate the idea of self.

L: But maybe by way of self ...

TA: No, never, the way of self is avijja, not understanding, ignorance;
otherwise there is no self, if there is no ignorance.
Where is ignorance now? Whenever there is no right understanding, whenever
akusala citta arises, there is a clinging to the idea of I or self, and vijja is
the opposite of ignorance.
Can anyone show a way to get rid of ignorance, a shortcut, a method? when it's
method it's ignorance.

J: If we choose...

TA: Actually, lobha chooses.
I would like to see sutta support for this.

I guess you are asking for evidence that satipatthana is not a mthod or technique?

as i cited from the satipatthana sutta earlier in this thread





in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension(satisampajanna); in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension.


Insight can arise while walking, while standing, while looking straight ahead, while looking to the back, while defacating and while urinating. And most certainly it can arise while sitting.

But it is not a method to follow, ot is rather showing than whatever is arising now can be understood, if there are enough conditions to understand.

Note I am referring here to vipassana: some samatha is aided by seclusion and by specific posture etc. as I mentioned above.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:14 pm

robertk wrote:Please check out the quotes from the Satipatthana sutta I supplied earlier in this thread.

in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension(satisampajanna); in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension.


Insight can arise while walking, while standing, while looking straight ahead, while looking to the back, while defacating and while urinating. And most certainly it can arise while sitting.

But it is not a method to follow, ot is rather shoing than whatever is arising now can be understood, if there are enough conditions to understand.

Note I am referring here to vipassana: some samatha is aided by seclusion and by specific posture etc. as I mentioned above.




But one has to to act intentionally to have clear comprehension while: "walking, standing, looking straight ahead, defecating, etc..."
You are correct when you say "But it is not a method to follow", because "insight can arise while..." is different from causes for the insight.

Just because someone got insight while X, it doesn't mean that X caused the insight. That person could have formally been meditating 20 hours a day 7 days a week for 20 years until insight arose at a mundane moment. The mundane activity that person could have been doing might have nothing to do with the cause for arisen insight.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:34 am

Alex123 wrote:
robertk wrote:Please check out the quotes from the Satipatthana sutta I supplied earlier in this thread.

in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension(satisampajanna); in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension.


Insight can arise while walking, while standing, while looking straight ahead, while looking to the back, while defacating and while urinating. And most certainly it can arise while sitting.

But it is not a method to follow, ot is rather shoing than whatever is arising now can be understood, if there are enough conditions to understand.

Note I am referring here to vipassana: some samatha is aided by seclusion and by specific posture etc. as I mentioned above.




But one has to to act intentionally to have clear comprehension while: "walking, standing, looking straight ahead, defecating, etc..."
You are correct when you say "But it is not a method to follow", because "insight can arise while..." is different from causes for the insight.

Just because someone got insight while X, it doesn't mean that X caused the insight. That person could have formally been meditating 20 hours a day 7 days a week for 20 years until insight arose at a mundane moment. The mundane activity that person could have been doing might have nothing to do with the cause for arisen insight.
One of the interesting texts is the accounting of Ananda's awakening:

    Meanwhile the time came when the venerable Ananda thought: "The meeting is tomorrow. It is not seemly for me to go to the meeting place as a mere learner." He spent much of the night in contemplation of the body. When the night was near dawn, he thought "I shall lie down"; but he kept mindful of the body. Before his head touched the pillow and after his feet left the ground, his heart was in this interval liberated from taints through not clinging. So the venerable Ananda went to the assembly as an Arahant.
Vin. Cv. Kh. 11
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:54 am

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
L: <...> I appreciate your teaching so much because it's so natural, <...>, just
read and listen and the mind finds its own way by different moments, even if
it's very slow; but some people have their particular way of developing, <...>
and observe what happens in daily life, what do you think about this?

TA: Who is doing this?

L: A self.

TA: Ok, so that is not the way to eradicate the idea of self.

L: But maybe by way of self ...

TA: No, never, the way of self is avijja, not understanding, ignorance;
otherwise there is no self, if there is no ignorance.
Where is ignorance now? Whenever there is no right understanding, whenever
akusala citta arises, there is a clinging to the idea of I or self, and vijja is
the opposite of ignorance.
Can anyone show a way to get rid of ignorance, a shortcut, a method? when it's
method it's ignorance.

J: If we choose...

TA: Actually, lobha chooses.
I would like to see sutta support for this.

I guess you are asking for evidence that satipatthana is not a mthod or technique?

as i cited from the satipatthana sutta earlier in this thread

in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension(satisampajanna); in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension.


Insight can arise while walking, while standing, while looking straight ahead, while looking to the back, while defacating and while urinating. And most certainly it can arise while sitting.

But it is not a method to follow, ot is rather showing than whatever is arising now can be understood, if there are enough conditions to understand.

Note I am referring here to vipassana: some samatha is aided by seclusion and by specific posture etc. as I mentioned above.
Interestingly, there is no sutta support (or any real support) given here for Sujin's claim: "Actually, lobha chooses." I would like to see sutta support for this astounding claim, a claim which has been used in this thread to dismiss meditation practice as having any validity, and also we see that this dismissal comes directly from Sujin herself.

Insight can arise while walking, while standing, while looking straight ahead, while looking to the back, while defacating and while urinating. And most certainly it can arise while sitting.

But it is not a method to follow, ot is rather showing than whatever is arising now can be understood, if there are enough conditions to understand.
And here is the point: By doing a disciplined practice of meditation, as in of the Burmese vipassana traditions or in the Ajahn Chah style or any number of others, the conditions for the arising of insight are cultivated, and this has, of course, a definite carry over into one's activities of daily life. These activities themselves become part of the practice.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:46 am

robertk wrote:thus dhammas like hardness or boredom or pleasant feeling are real in the ultimate sense but concepts like Person or computer are not real.
in the case of say the computer the trillions of kalapas that make up what we call a computer are real, but they arise and pass away, and are immediately replaced countless times in a split second.
the concept, like computer is a shadow of the actual elements.
The Buddhist version of Plato's Cave.

The problem is that "thus dhammas like hardness or boredom or pleasant feeling are real in the ultimate sense but concepts like Person or computer are not real" has no grounding in this way in the suttas, and I rather seriously doubt that it can be tied to the actual Abhidhamma Pitaka. Reflecting that historical level of thought:

    Prof. Dr. Y. Karunadasa, THE DHAMMA THEORY, page 9 http://www.zeh-verlag.de/download/dhammatheory.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; wrote:In the Pali tradition it is only for the sake of definition and description that each dhamma is postulated as if it were a separate entity; but in reality it is by no means a solitary phenomenon having an existence of its own. . . . If this Abhidhammic view of existence, as seen from its doctrine of dhammas, cannot be interpreted as a radical pluralism, neither can it be interpreted as an out-and-out monism. For what are called dhammas -- the component factors of the universe, both within us and outside us -- are not fractions of an absolute unity but a multiplicity of co-ordinate factors. They are not reducible to, nor do they emerge from, a single reality, the fundamental postulate of monistic metaphysics. If they are to be interpreted as phenomena, this should be done with the proviso that they are phenomena with no corresponding noumena, no hidden underlying ground. For they are not manifestations of some mysterious metaphysical substratum, but processes taking place due to the interplay of a multitude of conditions.


    Nyanaponika quotes a sub-commentary to an Abhidhamma text: "There is no other thing than the quality borne by it." (na ca dhaariyamma-sabhaavaa an~n~o dhammo naama atthi). Abhidhamma Studies, page 40. Which is to say: We simpy cannot say that 'a dharma is... (a predicate follows)', because a dharma, in fact, 'is' no thing, yet [it is] a term denoting (not being) a certain relation or type of relation to thought, consciousness or mind. That is, dharma is not a concept in the accepted terminological sense of the latter, but a purely relational notion. -- Piatigorsky, THE BUDDHIST PHILOSOPHY OF THOUGHT, page 181.

    Nyanaponika ABHIDHAMMA STUDIES, page 41 BPS; page 42 Wisdom wrote:By arranging the mental factors in relational groups a subordinate synthetical element has been introduced into the mainly analytical Dhammasangani. By so doing, the danger inherent in purely analytical methods is avoided. This danger consists in erroneously taking for genuine separate entities the “parts” resulting from analysis, instead of restricting their use to sound practical method with the purpose of classifying and dissolving composite events wrongly conceived as unities. Up to the present time it has been a regular occurrence in the history of physics, metaphysics, and psychology that when the “whole” has been successfully dissolved by analysis, the resultant “parts” themselves come in turn to be regarded as little “wholes.”


    Piatigorsky (In his study of the Pitaka Abhidhamma texts, THE BUDDHIST PHILOSOPHY OF THOUGHT, p 182) puts it: “From the point of view of consciousness, it can be said that, when consciousness is conscious of one’s mind, thought, or consciousness directed to their objects, then it is ‘being conscious of’ that may be named ‘a state of consciousness’ or a dharma.”

    Piatigorsky (THE BUDDHIST PHILOSOPHY OF THOUGHT, p 146) explains: “the meaning of each abhidhammic term [dhamma] consists (or is the sum) of all its positional meanings and of all positional meanings of its connotations.”


robertk wrote:"thus dhammas like hardness or boredom or pleasant feeling are real in the ultimate sense but concepts like Person or computer are not real"
The dhammas of hardness or boredom are no more real or no less real than are the experience of self/person or computer. Dhammas are ways of talking about our experience.

so imho it is fundamental, the start even, (and end) to learn to see the nature of realities and how different concepts and realities are.
The commentary to the UDANA ( translation by Peter Masefield from PTS) (p71,vol1, enlightenment chapter)

QUOTE
"it is ignorance since it causes beings to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it is ignorance since it darts among those things which do not actually exist (i.e. men, women] and since it does not dart among those things that do exist [i.e. it cannot understand the khandas, paramattha dhammas]
"Ultimate dhammas," being dependently arisen processes, are empty of any self-ness and have no more actual reality than do any others. As I said, Dhammas are ways of talking about our experience.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:46 am

Pariyatti as the Root of the Sāsanā

(From the Atthakathā to Anguttara Nikāya, Ekanipāta, Dutiyapamādādivagga, 42nd sutta)




And in that place [Maṇḍalārāma Monastery in Kallagāma] there arose a discussion among the elders as to whether the root of the Dispensation consisted in practice (paṭipatti) or in study of the Teaching (pariyatti). Those elders who were wearers of rag-robes said, “practice is the root,” and those elders who were teachers of Dhamma said, “study is the root.”

Then some elders said, “we cannot decide between your two opinions merely on the basis of your assertions. Support them by quoting a saying spoken by the Conqueror.”

“It will be no trouble to quote a saying,” replied both sides. Then the elders who were wearers of rag-robes quoted these passages:

“Subhadda, if bhikkhus in this very Dispensation were to live rightly, the world would not be empty of arahants.”

“Your majesty, the Teacher’s Dispensation is rooted in practice and has practice as its pith. While practice is maintained, the Dispensation lasts.”

After listening to these sayings, the elders who were teachers of Dhamma then quoted this saying as proof of their own claim:

“For as long the Suttantas endure, for as long as the Vinaya is taught,
For just that long will there be light, like that after the sun has risen.
But when the Suttantas are no more, and when the Vinaya is forgotten,
There will be darkness in the world, like that after the sun has set.
While the Suttantas are protected, then is practice protected too;
A sage, being grounded in practice, fails not to reach peace from the bonds.”

When this saying was quoted, the elders who were wearers of rag-robes became silent and the speech of the teachers of Dhamma prevailed.

Neither among a hundred bulls, nor among a thousand, will even a single bull ensure the continuance of his line in the absence of a cow. Even so, neither among a hundred bhikkhus intent on insight, nor among a thousand, will even a single bhikkhu penetrate the noble path in the absence of pariyatti.

Marks are engraved in rock to show the location of buried treasure; for as long as those marks endure, the treasure is not reckoned as lost. Even so, for as long as pariyatti endures, the Teacher’s Dispensation is not reckoned to have disappeared.
(Manorathapūraṇī i. 92-3, translation by dhammanando

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:47 am

why the Dhamma needs to be considered carefully
from sarha abbott
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... age/121643
Here is a quote from the Paramatthadiipanii naama Udaana.t.thakathaa - The
Udaana Commentary; a discussion of the terms 'eva.m' and 'suta,m' used by
Aananda:
>
> "...And in proclaiming this utterance of eva.m, elucidating the paying of
methodical attention in the manner already stated, he elucidates the fact that
such things had been carefully considered by him in his mind; that they had been
well pierced by (right view). For the Dhamma of the texts, when carefully
considered in the mind after the manner of 'In this case it is morality that is
talked of, in this case concentration, in this case insight - to such an extent
are there sequential teachings here and so on, when pierced by thoroughly
investigating - after the manner of 'Such is form; to such extent there is form'
(cp DA 462 or D ii 35) and so forth - things formed and formless; spoken of in
this place and that, by way of (right) view either consisting of reflection
upon, and approval of, Dhamma accompanied by hearsay and the consideration of
reasons, or else reckoned as full understanding of the known, is one bringing
happiness and well-being to oneself and others. In proclaiming this utterance
suta.m, elucidating his link with hearing, he elucidates 'Abundant are the
things heard by me; learned by heart, verbally familiarised' (cp M i 213 etc.).
For texts are (all) subject to application of the ear. In the complete
fulfillment of the meaning and formulation of the Dhamma as a result of its
being well proclaimed, he generates regard (concerning same), by saying that the
one not hearing, with due regard, Dhamma with its meaning and formulation
completely fulfilled becomes one completely excluded from its benefit, that
Dhamma is to be heard with care..."
>

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:49 am

study in the present moment, study of the khandas


Sammohavinodanii:

QUOTE
2075. "...Anulomika.m khanti.m ('conformable acceptance') and so on are all synonyms for understanding. For that is in conformity since it conforms by showing non-opposition to the five reasons for the aforesaid sphere of work and so on. Likewise, it is in conformity since it conforms with behaviour beneficial to beings, it conforms to the Truth of the Path and it conforms owing to conforming to the highest meaning, nibbaana. And it accepts (khamati), bears, is able to see all these reasons, thus it is acceptance (khanti). 'It sees' is di.t.thi ('view'). 'It chooses' is ruci ('choice'). 'It perceives with the senses' is muti ('sensing'). 'It observes' is pekkho ('observance'). And all these things (dhamma) called the five aggregates on being studied (nijjhaayamaanaa) again and again in accordance with impermanence, suffering and no-self, accept (khamanti) that study (nijjhaana); thus it is dhammanijjhaanakkhanti ('acceptance of study things').

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Alex123
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:27 pm

RobertK,

Of course study is important. One studies first, then practices what one has learned. Obviously one needs to know what to practice.


As for why study monks won:
Someone needed to preserve the teaching for later generations. If all monks were reclusive ascetics who taught very little, if anything at all, then Buddhism would die out if one or few generations. This debate is NOT that only study without practice is required:

While the Suttantas are protected, then is practice protected too;
A sage, being grounded in practice, fails not to reach peace from the bonds.”


The monk's duties were not just for Arhatship, but also to preserve the teachings for later generations.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:36 pm

this is a transcript that nina made of the discussion in Bangkok today,
it talks about study in theory and directly.

Saturday, Http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... age/132675


part 1.

The Buddha’s teachings are about everything that appears now. Is it you who
sees? Seeing is seeing, it is dhamma. This truth can be directly experienced,
not by me, but by understanding. Is it possible to experience the arising and
falling away of seeing? Now now. Understanding has to begin by pariyatti
(intellectual understanding), then pa.tipatti (development of satipa.t.thaana)
and pativedha (realisation of the truth).

What is real is dhamma. We need the word abhidhamma, abhi, because it is very
subtle. One knows that seeing is not hearing. At the moment of seeing there is
no hearing. It is not enough to know that seeing is not permanent. Seeing cannot
be taken for self, it is conditioned to arise and fall away, before hearing can
arise.

Dhamma is abhidhamma, because it is very deep and subtle. Apart from abhidhamma
there is the word paramattha dhamma. No one can condition the arising of seeing,
it is beyond anyone’s control. Are you now studying abhidhamma, paramattha
dhamma, or just dhamma. They are the same. Whatever is real is dhamma, but sure,
it is subtle: abhidhamma. It takes time to study and really understand. Nobody
can change the characteristic of seeing into thinking, it is paramattha dhamma.
What dhammas are there now?

Answer: cold, hardness, feeling.

T.A.: At the moment of saying cold or hardness, is there any understanding of
their characteristics? What is the understanding of it? The characteristic of
non-self is not ready to appear yet. The experience of the actual seeing is not
now, while talking about it.

Remember, seeing is not self, but understanding is not yet of the degree that it
can experience it as not self. When the Buddha pointed out the reality of
seeing, the listeners paid attention to its characteristic. Nowadays it is
different. There are different degrees of understanding.

What is eyesense, cakkhu pasada?

Answer: A kind of ruupa caused by kamma.

T.A.: Who knows cakkhu pasada? What about pariyatti, pa.tipatti and pativedha?
What is it now? Usually one is forgetful all the time. Are you forgetful? What
are you forgetful of? You forget that there are only dhammas, no one there.
Dhamma is so subtle, it is abhidhamma.

What is seen? We are forgetful again. If one is not forgetful, what is seen?
There is no one there, only visible object. At this very moment, what is seen?
There can be a condition for understanding to develop. There is only one kind of
reality that can be seen.

Study means not just listening to words, but it is understanding the nature of
realities. We think a lot of shape and form, but there is no one there. Really
understanding of what we are talking about is the development from pariyatti to
pa.tipatti. Who knows that that what is seen is just visible object, no people?
When there is no thinking there is no one. Is this abhidhamma? It is very deep
and subtle, letting go of people in this room.

What kind of citta is there at the moment of thinking of a cat? That moment is
not you, it is thinking. Thinking is real, not self.

Sukin: There is nothing wrong with thinking, thinking is not the problem, but
wrong view. What has arisen has already fallen away, we do not try to stop
thinking.

T.A.: It (thinking) is still you, not a dhamma. We are always forgetful. Who can
know what dhamma is without studying?

**********

Nina.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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clw_uk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby clw_uk » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:18 pm

robertk wrote:HI coyote,
not sure I understand your question about common parlance?

One important issue I want to bring out is that the idea expressed in the opening post that it is by 'paying attention to our experiences' that wisdom develops, seems not really supported by sutta.



Well you can read the words anicca, dukkha and anatta and understand them intellectually, but its only when you experience them directly do you understand them

And we experience them by "paying attention to our experiences"

So wisdom develops via attention to experience
The dogmatists have claimed to have found the truth, others say that it cannot be apprehended; the Sceptics continue the search.
Sextus Empiricus


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