The causes for wisdom

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:51 am

robertk wrote:As I understand it correct intellectual understanding is the prime cause for deeper levels of understanding.
Intellectual understanding is important, but who determines that one's understanding is THE correct one?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:55 am

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:As I understand it correct intellectual understanding is the prime cause for deeper levels of understanding.
Intellectual understanding is important, but who determines that one's understanding is THE correct one?


I would say that it is the result is what that determines if one's understanding is correct. I also think that it is easy to misunderstand what "intellectual understanding" is. We associate it with an accumulation of information or with things like communication skills.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:15 am

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:As I understand it correct intellectual understanding is the prime cause for deeper levels of understanding.
Intellectual understanding is important, but who determines that one's understanding is THE correct one?


I would say that it is the result is what that determines if one's understanding is correct.
Probably so; however, that raises further questions, it would seem.


I also think that it is easy to misunderstand what "intellectual understanding" is. We associate it with an accumulation of information or with things like communication skills.
It seems, looking at how the followers of the Sujin method talk about their practice, that the Sujin method values what would be characterized as an accumulation of knowledge.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby binocular » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:28 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:I would say that it is the result is what that determines if one's understanding is correct.
Probably so; however, that raises further questions, it would seem.

What questions, for example?
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:17 am

So how do the details of abhidhamma help understanding?

QUOTEi) formal concept (santhana pannatti) corresponding to the form ofthings, such as land, mountain or tree, which are so designated onaccount of the mode of transition of the elements
.ii) collective concept (samuha pannatti), corresponding to modes ofconstruction of materials, to a collection of things, such as avehicle or a chariot.
iii) conventional concept (sammutti pannatti), such as person orindividual, which is derived from the five khandhas.
iv) local concept (disa pannatti), a notion or idea derived from therevolving of the moon, such as the directions of East or West.v) concept of time (kala pannatti), such as morning, evening.
vi) concept of season (masa pannatti), notions corresponding toseasons and months. The months are designated by names, such as Vesakha.
vii) concept of space (akasa), such as a well or a cave. It isderived from space which is not contacted by the four Great Elements.
viii) nimitta pannatti, the mental image which is acquired throughthe
development of samatha, such as the nimitta of a kasina.

See http://www.abhidhamma.org/sujin3.htm Realities and Concepts SujinBoriharnwanaket.

Acharn Sujin explains in 'Realities and concepts' there are different types of concept. Such words as dosa, lobha, metta, colour,hatred, sound are concepts that designate paramattha dhammas, theyare vijjamana pannatti. Words such as person, animal, computer,Robert, Mike do not refer to paramattha dhammas and are calledavijjamana pannati.

) D
oesn't a concept arise at the mind-door?


Concepts are dhammarammana(mental object) and they appear at the mind-door. The mind-door has many different objects including citta,cetasika, rupa and nibbana which are all paramattha dhamma. It alsohas concept as an object.By the development of satipatthana the difference between conceptand paramattha dhamma must gradually becomes clearer.

Now you arereading this so it might be worthwhile analysing what is actuallyhappening. There is visible object, the different colours making upthe computer screen. The colours are real (but arising and passingaway rapidly) the computer screen is not real, however the variousrupas that make up the screen are real,(and arising and passing awayceaselessly). There is cakkhuvinnana, seeing consciousness which isreal (and ephemeral) which arises due to the contact of the eyebase(real, conditioned by kamma done in the past, evanescent). Then thereare processes of citta which experience the same object and thenthere are mind-door processes which think about what was seen and soconcepts are formed up. Yet these concepts do not actually exist.There must be this process occuring, no one can stop it occuring. Ifit didn't occur we would be utterly vacuous, know nothing at all,much less than a new born baby. Thus it is the most natural thingthat concepts arise.Unfortunately, though, throughout samasara we have given theseconcepts special staus that they don't deserve, namely we think theyexist. This mistaken notion means that we will do all sorts of evilto protect these illusionary figments such as self. (endSo how do the details of the Abhidhamma and commentaries help
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:34 am

robertk wrote:The colours are real (but arising and passingaway rapidly) the computer screen is not real
So one set of condition "things" is real, but another is not. What is meant by "real?"
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:57 am

here is a conversation in poland last year which might be useful
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... age/131573
(Than Acharn sujin in Poland, 12th, pm-A, 14m30)

- 2 -

Ann: She asks: <In one discourse Ajahn Sujin said, <...>, how to cling less
<...> not to give in to the attachment, I don't understand.>

TA: Usually people don't want to understand at all, just want to (know) how, are
they Buddhist? because they don't want to understand.
Jon: Sometimes they want to understand, but they see understanding as a way of
reaching a certain... 'fringe benefit'.

TA: but how?

Jon: by self

TA: (does) the word 'how' indicate understanding, or theory, or what? just
wanting to get, that's all;

J: wanting to know a method;

TA: would you like to understand or to know how?

J: understanding's better.;

TA: otherwise we might not be able to answer the question she's just (asked),
that way - just to show how.

A: <How to study (Dhamma) in a moment of attachment? to food for example. And
you explained again that the answer is 'understanding',<...>, and some of the
conditions for understanding are hearing the true Dhamma and considering it,
discussing it >

TA: - until it's her own understanding

J: There isn't an answer, to the question 'How can I develop understanding when
there is craving for food?'

TA: Who can tell her how? That's why we talk about arammana (object) - food is
arammana, at moment of seeing it - craving for food, food is the arammana; not
understanding what arammana is, so how can there be no craving when there's no
understanding.

A: There can't, but I guess ... when there is no understanding the next logical
question ...

TA: Don't you want to know what craving is? and no one can stop its arising;
just the self trying not to have it.

A: When people who are just beginning to study the Dhamma, to listen...

TA: That person should understand what Dhamma is; understanding one word at a
time is the best thing.

A: I'm thinking about this in the context of people who ask, <...>, when someone
asks and shows an interest in the Dhamma.

TA: But there are many people who show interest in Dhamma, like wanting to know
or to understand; wanting to know what Dhamma is or don't want to know what
Dhamma is, just want to know, whatever they like to know, like craving for food.

A: I don't think they know.

TA: Tell me how to be happy, see, who can tell? tell me that you don't have
attachment, who can do?

A: I think she would like to know how to develop understanding.

TA: Of now, or what? not of seeing; whatever appears, does she want to
understand (that)? Maybe she'd say "no, I want to understand how to be happy".

A: <... This is quite new to me, to develop understanding by intellectual
understanding, since Goenka always told me to do the contrary.>

TA: Not Buddha.

Lukas: <...> you always talk about the Dhamma, the Dhamma, but this is not yet
understood at all, and my point is that even if there is thinking like this, in
my case like even if it's not dhamma but just a story that thinks of 'this is
anatta, dukkha, anicca', and isn't it the way to develop more understanding?

TA: What thinks?

L: Vitakka.

TA: Or, dhamma; no one thinks, anytime that thinking arises there can be the
understanding of that moment which thinks, that is not that which sees - all
comes to anattaness, realities; because sometimes one thinks "ok, seeing is no
me, but thinking is me, I (think)".

L: But it's a long way; it's like one moment of understanding and then many
moments of ignorance <...>

TA: Yes, so you understand what is meant by khanti (patience), viriya (effort),
sacca (truth), adhitthana (resolution, four of the ten perfections)...

L: Yes, little by little, by I'd like to understand more than khanti.

TA: 'I'? :-); can you understand everything, in a day, or two days, or two
years, or twenty years?
It seems like that's not so difficult to understand, but actually the more you
know the more you can see the subtlety of reality - it's beyond expectation,
nobody can think about the moment when it arises and falls away, just know that
whatever appears now arises and falls away, that's all and that's not enough,
because it's only thinking about that but not the direct experience of it; when
one knows that it is true, shouldn't one follows it until it can be moment of
penetration, penetrating the truth, with understanding

L: <...> I appreciate your teaching so much because it's so natural, <...>, just
read and listen and the mind finds its own way by different moments, even if
it's very slow; but some people have their particular way of developing, <...>
and observe what happens in daily life, what do you think about this?

TA: Who is doing this?

L: A self.

TA: Ok, so that is not the way to eradicate the idea of self.

L: But maybe by way of self ...

TA: No, never, the way of self is avijja, not understanding, ignorance;
otherwise there is no self, if there is no ignorance.
Where is ignorance now? Whenever there is no right understanding, whenever
akusala citta arises, there is a clinging to the idea of I or self, and vijja is
the opposite of ignorance.
Can anyone show a way to get rid of ignorance, a shortcut, a method? when it's
method it's ignorance.

J: If we choose...

TA: Actually, lobha chooses.

J: But if we choose, for example, visible object, is it in fact visible object?
or is it just an idea...

TA: And how can you understand visible object as not self? - uncontrollable, how
come to appear to this moment.

J: I suppose the idea is that by choosing to observe visible object, you see
that ...

TA: Ok, observe - in what way, to understand it? it's like this, just like this;
and what's the way to observe? open you eyes, or what?:-)

L: It's like trying so much.

TA: Is cetana (intention) one of the eightfold (factors of the) path?

L: No. But Ajahn, people usually want some particular way...

TA: People, not me; I can't do anything for those people at all -
arammanupanissaya paccaya, pakatupanissaya paccaya, why do we read about all
these (conditions) - just to forget about it, and have the idea of choosing; it
doesn't help at all if one reads and there is the idea of selecting, choosing:
to understand this, not that.
Sotapanna eradicates wrong view completely, from everything: thinking, liking,
attachment, aversion - whatever it is it's conditioned.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:56 am

L: <...> I appreciate your teaching so much because it's so natural, <...>, just
read and listen and the mind finds its own way by different moments, even if
it's very slow; but some people have their particular way of developing, <...>
and observe what happens in daily life, what do you think about this?

TA: Who is doing this?

L: A self.

TA: Ok, so that is not the way to eradicate the idea of self.

L: But maybe by way of self ...

TA: No, never, the way of self is avijja, not understanding, ignorance;
otherwise there is no self, if there is no ignorance.
Where is ignorance now? Whenever there is no right understanding, whenever
akusala citta arises, there is a clinging to the idea of I or self, and vijja is
the opposite of ignorance.
Can anyone show a way to get rid of ignorance, a shortcut, a method? when it's
method it's ignorance.

J: If we choose...

TA: Actually, lobha chooses.
I would like to see sutta support for this.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:05 am

thanks for your questions Tilt.
i am in japan this week but will be in bangkok from the 17th and have more time to devote.
I will try to give some replies in the meantime when I can.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:09 am

robertk wrote:thanks for your questions Tilt.
i am in japan this week but will be in bangkok from the 17th and have more time to devote.
I will try to give some replies in the meantime when I can.
It should be quite interesting, indeed.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby ancientbuddhism » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:12 pm

tiltbillings wrote: …Intellectual knowledge definitely has a role to play, but it is a subservient role.


This is key to Khun Sujin’s misunderstanding of the Dhamma. The schedules of analysis of paṭiccasamuppāda, which find expression through the schedules of pañcakkhandha, dhammā, dhātu etc. intrinsic to sammādiṭṭhi, are intended to work in tandem with the contemplative methods of sammāsati and sammāsamādhi. The former is unpacked for our understanding through the latter.
Fingers walk the darkness down
Mind is on the midnight
Gather up the gold you've found
You fool, it's only moonlight.
If you try to take it home
Your hands will turn to butter
You better leave this dream alone
Try to find another. – Townes Van Zandt ‘Lungs’

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:34 pm

ancientbuddhism wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: …Intellectual knowledge definitely has a role to play, but it is a subservient role.


This is key to Khun Sujin’s misunderstanding of the Dhamma. The schedules of analysis of paṭiccasamuppāda, which find expression through the schedules of pañcakkhandha, dhammā, dhātu etc. intrinsic to sammādiṭṭhi, are intended to work in tandem with the contemplative methods of sammāsati and sammāsamādhi. The former is unpacked for our understanding through the latter.
Yes. And the Sujin method dismisses any attempt at cultivating "the contemplatives methods of sammāsati and sammāsamādhi" as being hopelessly and mistakenly driven by self-concept and lobha, which is a blatant and wholesale dismissal of all other forms of Dhamma practice other than what Sujin teaches. This dismissal is not a side comment by Sujin's overly enthusiastic followers. It is, rather, a we-have-it-right-everyone-else-has-it-wrong sectarianism that is very much part of the method Sujin teaches, coming directly from Sujin herself, as we can see in the directly above by robertk.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:40 am

ancientbuddhism wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: …Intellectual knowledge definitely has a role to play, but it is a subservient role.


This is key to Khun Sujin’s misunderstanding of the Dhamma. The schedules of analysis of paṭiccasamuppāda, which find expression through the schedules of pañcakkhandha, dhammā, dhātu etc. intrinsic to sammādiṭṭhi, are intended to work in tandem with the contemplative methods of sammāsati and sammāsamādhi. The former is unpacked for our understanding through the latter.


When there is understanding of Dhamma - whether one is istting, standing, walking or talking there is also sammasati and sammasamadhi.
Th eone who reveres the Dhamma will more and more see how deep and profound it is : and how beneficial it is to listen and contemplate Dhamma.
Sn 3.12
PTS: Sn 724-765
Dvayatanupassana Sutta
Now on that occasion — the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, the full-moon night — the Blessed One was sitting in the open air surrounded by the community of monks. Surveying the silent community of monks, he addressed them: "Monks, if there are any who ask, 'Your listening to teachings that are skillful, noble, leading onward, going to self-awakening is a prerequisite for what?'

they should be told, 'For the sake of knowing qualities of dualities as they actually are.' 'What duality are you speaking about?' 'This is stress. This is the origination of stress': this is one contemplation. 'This is the cessation of stress. This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': this is a second contemplation. For a monk rightly contemplating this duality in this way — heedful, ardent, & resolute — one of two fruits can be expected: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance — non-return."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



And while listening and considering there can be deeper Samadhi of the correct type growing
When, Bhikkhus, a Noble Disciple listens carefully to the Dhamma,
alert with keen ears,
attending to it as a matter of crucial concern, as something of vital
importance, directing
his entire mind to it, in that very moment the Five Mental Hindrances
are absent in him.
On that occasion the Seven Links to Awakening develop towards
complete fulfilment...>
Source (edited extract):
The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya.
Book [V: 95-6] section 46: The Links. 38: Unhindered

This all takes a great deal of effort, but it is only useful if it is the right effort..
:
One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort.
One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.
Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:50 am

robertk wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: …Intellectual knowledge definitely has a role to play, but it is a subservient role.


This is key to Khun Sujin’s misunderstanding of the Dhamma. The schedules of analysis of paṭiccasamuppāda, which find expression through the schedules of pañcakkhandha, dhammā, dhātu etc. intrinsic to sammādiṭṭhi, are intended to work in tandem with the contemplative methods of sammāsati and sammāsamādhi. The former is unpacked for our understanding through the latter.


When there is understanding of Dhamma - whether one is istting, standing, walking or talking there is also sammasati and sammasamadhi.
Th eone who reveres the Dhamma will more and more see how deep and profound it is : and how beneficial it is to listen and contemplate Dhamma.
And the Buddha neatly outlined a path of practice, a path of doing, that is far more than a mere intellectual understanding and a thinking about the Dhamma.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:55 am

robertk wrote:This all takes a great deal of effort, but it is only useful if it is the right effort..
:
One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort.
One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.
Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Indeed, a great deal of effort, which is exemplified, in the suttas, by a disciplined meditation practice, keeping the precepts, and actively following the rest of the Eightfold Path.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:56 am

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:06 pm

tiltbillings wrote:It seems, looking at how the followers of the Sujin method talk about their practice, that the Sujin method values what would be characterized as an accumulation of knowledge.


that depends, for some poeople it may be that way, for others it can go deeper. In general Sujin is careful to stress that Abhidhamma is here and now, not merely a subject in a book.
this is from a recored discussion in poland last year.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... age/131618
(Than Acharn, in Poland, 14th, aam, 1m)

And another thing is <?Pali/Thai word?>: Dhamma discussion, listening to Dhamma
- being it all about leading to more and more understanding so that it can
eliminate unwholesomeness and selfishness; - in order to
understand Dhamma;

because people today usually think that what they are reading is the
moment of studying Dhamma, but it's not, it's only studying *a subject on*
Dhamma, but not understanding what Dhamma is at all;


but now, since one knows
that at the time of the Buddha, he taught those who came to listen to him about
whatever appears, as reality, and that person can lead all those people who
considered and agreed whether seeing now is permanent or not, because a moment
of life, a moment in the circle of birth and death is this very moment -

each
moment forms up the whole samsara, not a single moment is out of it, otherwise
it wouldn't be samsara; so now at the moment of hearing a sound, when there's no
understanding it's passed with ignorance again, and attachment again,
unknowingly, because of the four aasava (accumulated defilements): kaama aasava
(of attachment to sensous objects), ditthi aasava (of wrong view), bhava aasava
(of being someone), and avijja aasava (of ignorance);

we couldn't understand
this at all if the Buddha, after his enlightenment, didn't tell us about what
appears so very fast, because it seems like everything is there for awhile, like
the sun now, and the visible object, but actually it's so rapid - only one
moment of citta cannot be imagined, but since it arises, the characteristic, how
can one know about it, whether there is citta or not, because the succession of
the arising and falling away of citta appears as - it sees and then it hears,
especially these, letting one know that there is a reality which can experience
an object, otherwise the world would not be seen - no one (would) know about the
world of sight now, and the world of sound, because without the arising and
falling away of realities there would be nothing at all appearing - no
experiencing; so the most important thing now is that not knowing that what is
appearing, because that experience, the citta, it's now the faculty of
experiencing; that's why there are many words for citta, like pandara (that
which is clear): citta itself does not like or dislike - it just experience,

but
it cannot arise without cetasikas, so we come to the conditions, from the very
beginning, that nothing can arise without conditions; so at this moment of
seeing, citta is the faculty of experiencing, but there must be many factors for
its arising, so there are many factors arising with this moment of seeing,


unknowingly; the Buddha didn't enlighten from his seeing's accumulation; (not)
by just knowing the truth for himself, but to share it with the others; because
anyone who doesn't understand realities is living in a blind world, not
understanding, just live and die, that's all; but in reality these are different
dhatus, citta is one dhatu, cetasikas are dhatus, everything is its own dhatu;


so now nobody know about the seven cetasikas which arise with this citta, why?
because even that which experiences is unknown as a reality - no self, no one
there; so by developing understanding, reading more and consider what the book
tells about now, this moment, we can condition right understanding from moment
to moment, to understand each reality more deeply; to see,

right now, it's
agreed that seeing sees and hearing hears, but that's only the idea, the
intellectual understanding from the one who has directly penetrated the truth of
this, and that can be developed too, for those who really know and understand
what is meant by reality or Dhamma.



TA: What is the first one? (of the blessings, in the Mangala Sutta)
, the reason to see the value of kusala
and the dangers of akusala; everything is a bit of accumulations, from aeons and
aeons before, that's why today there's one taken for Lukas, and what people take
for this or that person, but in reality they're all dhatus (elements), and when
you talk about dhatus - nobody can do anything to fire, or earth, or wind or
anything, because there are conditions for their arising, everything has
conditions for its arising; so if we don't know that association with wrong
persons is so dangerous, we might run into that danger by associating more and
more; that's why (the) one thing that one can associate with the wrong ones is
to help or to assist (them), not to follow their idea - just for the sake of
helping that person to be good, to have right understanding, but not to follow
that wrong understanding,
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:16 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:The colours are real (but arising and passingaway rapidly) the computer screen is not real
So one set of condition "things" is real, but another is not. What is meant by "real?"

In the visuddhimagga n
ote from the subcommentary explains Viii n. 68
In such passages as “Dhammas that are concepts (Dhs p.1, 1308) even a non-entity (abhavaa) is thus called a “dhamma” since it is borne (dhaariiyati) and affirmed (avadhaariiyatti) by knowledge. That kind of dhamma is excluded by his saying “Dhammas (means) individual essences”. The act of becoming (bhavana), which constitutes existingness (vijjamaanataa) in the ultimate sense, is essence (bhaava); it is with essence (saha bhaavena), thus it is an individual essence (sabhaava); the meaning is that it is possible (labbhamaanaruupa) in the true sense, in the ultimate sense. For these are called “dhammas (bearers)” because they bear (dhaarana) their own individual essences (sabhaava), and they are called “individual essences” in the sense already explained (Pm.282
)

thus dhammas like hardness or boredom or pleasant feeling are real in the ultimate sense but concepts like Person or computer are not real.
in the case of say the computer the trillions of kalapas that make up what we call a computer are real, but they arise and pass away, and are immediately replaced countless times in a split second.
the concept, like computer is a shadow of the actual elements.

so imho it is fundamental, the start even, (and end) to learn to see the nature of realities and how different concepts and realities are.
The commentary to the UDANA ( translation by Peter Masefield from PTS) (p71,vol1, enlightenment chapter)

QUOTE
"it is ignorance since it causes beings to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it is ignorance since it darts among those things which do not actually exist (i.e. men, women] and since it does not dart among those things that do exist [i.e. it cannot understand the khandas, paramattha dhammas]
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:43 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
L: <...> I appreciate your teaching so much because it's so natural, <...>, just
read and listen and the mind finds its own way by different moments, even if
it's very slow; but some people have their particular way of developing, <...>
and observe what happens in daily life, what do you think about this?

TA: Who is doing this?

L: A self.

TA: Ok, so that is not the way to eradicate the idea of self.

L: But maybe by way of self ...

TA: No, never, the way of self is avijja, not understanding, ignorance;
otherwise there is no self, if there is no ignorance.
Where is ignorance now? Whenever there is no right understanding, whenever
akusala citta arises, there is a clinging to the idea of I or self, and vijja is
the opposite of ignorance.
Can anyone show a way to get rid of ignorance, a shortcut, a method? when it's
method it's ignorance.

J: If we choose...

TA: Actually, lobha chooses.
I would like to see sutta support for this.

I guess you are asking for evidence that satipatthana is not a mthod or technique?

as i cited from the satipatthana sutta earlier in this thread





in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension(satisampajanna); in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension.


Insight can arise while walking, while standing, while looking straight ahead, while looking to the back, while defacating and while urinating. And most certainly it can arise while sitting.

But it is not a method to follow, ot is rather showing than whatever is arising now can be understood, if there are enough conditions to understand.

Note I am referring here to vipassana: some samatha is aided by seclusion and by specific posture etc. as I mentioned above.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:14 pm

robertk wrote:Please check out the quotes from the Satipatthana sutta I supplied earlier in this thread.

in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension(satisampajanna); in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension.


Insight can arise while walking, while standing, while looking straight ahead, while looking to the back, while defacating and while urinating. And most certainly it can arise while sitting.

But it is not a method to follow, ot is rather shoing than whatever is arising now can be understood, if there are enough conditions to understand.

Note I am referring here to vipassana: some samatha is aided by seclusion and by specific posture etc. as I mentioned above.




But one has to to act intentionally to have clear comprehension while: "walking, standing, looking straight ahead, defecating, etc..."
You are correct when you say "But it is not a method to follow", because "insight can arise while..." is different from causes for the insight.

Just because someone got insight while X, it doesn't mean that X caused the insight. That person could have formally been meditating 20 hours a day 7 days a week for 20 years until insight arose at a mundane moment. The mundane activity that person could have been doing might have nothing to do with the cause for arisen insight.
”Even the water melting from the snow-capped peaks finds its way to the ocean."
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