Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

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SarathW
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Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby SarathW » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:29 am

The way I understand, the three fetters are attenuated by attaining Sotapanna and will be fully eradicated only by realising Nibbana.
Am I correct?
Three fetters are:
1. belief in a self (sakkāya-diṭṭhi)
2. doubt (vicikicchā)
3. attachment to rites and rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāso)[
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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retrofuturist
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:33 am

Greetings Sarath,

All three are fully eliminated by sotapanna.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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mikenz66
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:23 am


obo
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby obo » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:41 pm

Hello SarathW,

Retrofuturist's response is not quite correct. There are two [at least! I am not sure where the 'Dhamma-Follower' and 'Faith-freed' fit in] sorts of Sotapana mentioned in the Suttas: One who is such as a consequence of having awakened the Dhamma Eye, that is, he has seen that whatever has come to be is subject to ending, and one who is a 'Faith-Follower'.

The former has broken the first three sanyojanas (yokes to rebirth) which subject one to the possibility of rebirth in lower realms.

The concern for the latter with regard to the possibility of rebirth in lower realms is a matter of maintaining faith. Presumably maintaining faith he is reborn in a human or deva state conducive to further progress the first step of which would be the developing of the Dhamma Eye.

The distinction is in the matter of having broken the sakkayaditthi, or the holding of points of view with regard to individual existence; or, the other way around, having seen the truth of the Four Truths and understanding the implication with regard to the idea of self: that is, that there is no thing there that can justify the idea of 'I am' or 'This is mine'.

A couple of references that are right at my fingertips. Unfortunately no digital translations of these suttas are readily available:

an 7.14
an 7.53
an 8.22

EDIT: Here are a couple of discussions concerning this issue you may find interesting:

http://obo.genaud.net/dhammatalk/bd_dha ... etters.htm

http://obo.genaud.net/dhammatalk/bd_dha ... iduals.htm


SECOND EDIT:

Here is one that spells out the full meaning of faith and aserts without reference to the sanyojanas that this person is a Streamwinner:

KS 55.2, PTS, Woodward, translation:

Steeped In

Monks, blessed with four things an Ariyan disciple is a stream-wmner,
not doomed to the Downfall,
one assured,
one bound for enlightenment.

What four?

Herein, monks, an Ariyan disciple is blessed with unwavering loyalty to the Buddha, thus:

He it is, the Exalted One, Arahant, a fully Enlightened One, perfect in knowledge and practice, a Happy One, world-knower, unsurpassed charioteer of men to be tamed, teacher of devas and mankind, a Buddha, Exalted One.

He is blessed with unwavering loyalty to the Norm, thus:

Well proclaimed by the Exalted One is the Norm, seen in this very life, a thing not involving time, inviting oneto come and see, leading onward, to be known for themselves by the wise.

He is blessed with unwavering loyalty to the Order, thus:

Walking righteously is the Exalted One’s Order of Disciples, walking uprightly, walking in the right way, walking dutifully is the Exalted One's Order of Disciples: namely, the four pairs of men, the eight sorts ofmen. That is the Exalted One's Order of Disciples. Worthy of honour are they, worthy of reverence, worthy of offerings, worthy of salutations with clasped hands, — a field of merit unsurpassed for the world.

He is blessed with the virtues dear to the Ariyans, virtues unbroken, whole, unspotted, untarnished, giving freedom, praised by the wise: virtues untainted (by craving or delusion), which lead to concentration of the mind.

Blessed with these four things, monks, the Ariyan disciple is a stream-winner,
one not doomed to the Downfall,
one assured,
one bound for enlightenment.

Thus spake the Exalted One.

Having thus spoken, the Happy One, as teacher, said this: Whoso have faith and virtue, loyalty And insight of the Norm,—in time they win The bliss in which the holy life is steeped.

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daverupa
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby daverupa » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:34 pm


obo
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby obo » Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:14 pm

Greetings daverupa

Thank you for your response and concern about my understanding of the Aristocrats and my translation of sakkayaditthi.

I think however that your observation about what I might need to improve on in my understanding is just a tad on the intrusive side. My comment to retrofuturist, whom you appear to need to defend, was not towards him personally, but towards his statement.

I am sure I could benefit by greater understanding of the Aristocrats, especially those of the Non-returner and Arahant variety.

I stand by my translation of sakkayaditthi as one-truth view as one translation among several possibilities. But the question is: why should this translation bother you as it amounts to the same thing for one who sees the Four Truths? And you are aserting by your statements the fact that you do understand what it means to be a Streamwinner.

I wonder if you read the Woodward sutta provided in a third edit of my post. Here there is no mention of anything like those who are on the way (stream approachers) and those who have attained. While I am aware that there is mention of this classification for the sorts of men that constitute the sangha, this sutta and many others are clearly intended to assert that an individual is a streamwinner when they are in the stream whether or not they have crossed the stream. There is more than one scheme provided in the suttas, the alternate being one who has entered the stream and one who has the fruit.

From the point of view of compassion for those who understand the dangers of this world and rebirth and who fear for their destinies because they have awareness of the slightness or incompleteness of their understanding Gotama made several statements making it clear that steadfast faith alone was sufficient to declare streamwinning, and overcome rebirth as an animal, deamon or in hell. To assert otherwise is not a service to them.

I would like to see your sutta sitations (i.e., not sitations from the Abhidhamma) for your statements concerning "stream approacher" not being Streamwinners.

EDIT: PS your quote of AN 7 14 footnote just confirms what I have said.

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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby Nyana » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:51 pm


obo
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby obo » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:56 pm

No to either.

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daverupa
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby daverupa » Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:02 pm


Nyana
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby Nyana » Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:15 pm


obo
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby obo » Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:41 pm


Nyana
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby Nyana » Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:59 pm


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daverupa
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby daverupa » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:03 pm


obo
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby obo » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:43 pm

Hello Nayana and daverupa

daverupa
I don't see any need for a differentiation, but also I don't see any harm.

Nayana
A faith-follower would be a path-attainer and as long as the faith was not shaken, a Streamwinner. And there are those who use faith as their primary vehical all the way out.

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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby Nyana » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:00 pm


santa100
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby santa100 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:08 am


chownah
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby chownah » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:37 am

Santa100,
Your MN118 reference seems to be saying that eliminating the three fetters is adequate for classification as stream-enterer but it does not say that elimination of the three fetters is the only way to obtain classification as a stream-enterer....this leaves the door open for the possibility that there is a way to be classified as a stream-enterer without having eliminated the three fetters.....I guess......
chownah

santa100
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby santa100 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:13 am


chownah
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby chownah » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:25 am


santa100
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby santa100 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:47 pm



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