obo wrote:Retrofuturist's response is not quite correct. There are two [at least! I am not sure where the 'Dhamma-Follower' and 'Faith-freed' fit in] sorts of Sotapana mentioned in the Suttas: One who is such as a consequence of having awakened the Dhamma Eye, that is, he has seen that whatever has come to be is subject to ending, and one who is a 'Faith-Follower'.
The former has broken the first three sanyojanas (yokes to rebirth) which subject one to the possibility of rebirth in lower realms.
The seven are explained in detail at MN 70.14–21, I 477–79. In brief, the one liberated in both respects and the one liberated by wisdom are two kinds of arahants, distinguished by whether or not they possess the “peaceful formless emancipations transcending form.” The body witness, the one attained to view, and the one liberated by faith are three kinds of trainees, who can range anywhere from stream-enterer to one on the path to arahantship; they have already been discussed at 3:21. The Dhamma follower and the faith follower are two types who have entered the path to stream-entry but have not yet realized the fruit; they are distinguished according to whether wisdom or faith is their dominant faculty. The process by which they enter the path is described at SN 25:1, III 225.
obo wrote:There is more than one scheme provided in the suttas, the alternate being one who has entered the stream and one who has the fruit.
obo wrote:towards his statement.
I stand by my translation of sakkayaditthi as one-truth view as one translation among several possibilities.
an individual is a streamwinner when they are in the stream whether or not they have crossed the stream.
Gotama made several statements making it clear that steadfast faith alone was sufficient to declare streamwinning, and overcome rebirth as an animal, deamon or in hell. To assert otherwise is not a service to them.
I would like to see your sutta sitations (i.e., not sitations from the Abhidhamma) for your statements concerning "stream approacher" not being Streamwinners.
obo wrote:No to either.
"So then the differentiation you are making is between the sotapanna path-attainer and the sotapanna fruit-attainer?"
obo wrote:"So then the differentiation you are making is between the sotapanna path-attainer and the sotapanna fruit-attainer?"
No. I am not making any differentiations. In the suttas we find the sotapanna as path-attainer, attainer, fruit-attainer, usually paired either as the first and second, or the second and third. We also very frequently find the Sotapanna mentioned without reference to path or fruit or as I pointed out, the sanyojanas.
My point posting here was to short circuit the assertion that the streamwinner must have broken the first three sanyojanas where it is clear in many suttas that Gotama is saying that [as well as that] a person can consider themselves a Streamwinner if they can see in themselves the steadfast faith as described in SN 5.55.2 and in subsequent suttas in that Samyutta and in numerous other places throughout the suttas.
Nyana wrote:Well, it seems to me that differentiating between the sotāpanna path-attainer and the sotāpanna fruit-attainer resolves this issue: the former has not yet eliminated the three fetters whereas the latter has eliminated them.
daverupa wrote:Is a faith-follower a path-attainer?
SarathW wrote:The way I understand, the three fetters are attenuated by attaining Sotapanna and will be fully eradicated only by realising Nibbana.
Am I correct?
In this Sangha of bhikkhus there are bhikkhus who, with the destruction of the three fetters, are stream-enterers, no longer subject to perdition, bound [for deliverance], headed for enlightenment—such bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of bhikkhus
chownah wrote:Your MN118 reference seems to be saying that eliminating the three fetters is adequate for classification as stream-enterer but it does not say that elimination of the three fetters is the only way to obtain classification as a stream-enterer....this leaves the door open for the possibility that there is a way to be classified as a stream-enterer without having eliminated the three fetters.....I guess......
santa100 wrote:chownah wrote:Your MN118 reference seems to be saying that eliminating the three fetters is adequate for classification as stream-enterer but it does not say that elimination of the three fetters is the only way to obtain classification as a stream-enterer....this leaves the door open for the possibility that there is a way to be classified as a stream-enterer without having eliminated the three fetters.....I guess......
That'd be true had stream entry was the only fruit mentioned in the sutta. However, notice MN 118 mentioned the full range of other fruits (starting from the highest fruit of arahants down to the trainees who are working on the foundations of mindfulness and breath meditation). Since stream entry was listed 3rd from the bottom, that'd mean the destruction of the 3 fetters is needed to qualify one for that fruit..
You may very well be correct in your assessment of the meaning of the buddha's words but I don't think that it is explicitly spelled out in that Suttachownah wrote:
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