Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

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Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby SarathW » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:29 am

The way I understand, the three fetters are attenuated by attaining Sotapanna and will be fully eradicated only by realising Nibbana.
Am I correct?
Three fetters are:
1. belief in a self (sakkāya-diṭṭhi)
2. doubt (vicikicchā)
3. attachment to rites and rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāso)[
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:33 am

Greetings Sarath,

All three are fully eliminated by sotapanna.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:23 am

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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby obo » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:41 pm

Hello SarathW,

Retrofuturist's response is not quite correct. There are two [at least! I am not sure where the 'Dhamma-Follower' and 'Faith-freed' fit in] sorts of Sotapana mentioned in the Suttas: One who is such as a consequence of having awakened the Dhamma Eye, that is, he has seen that whatever has come to be is subject to ending, and one who is a 'Faith-Follower'.

The former has broken the first three sanyojanas (yokes to rebirth) which subject one to the possibility of rebirth in lower realms.

The concern for the latter with regard to the possibility of rebirth in lower realms is a matter of maintaining faith. Presumably maintaining faith he is reborn in a human or deva state conducive to further progress the first step of which would be the developing of the Dhamma Eye.

The distinction is in the matter of having broken the sakkayaditthi, or the holding of points of view with regard to individual existence; or, the other way around, having seen the truth of the Four Truths and understanding the implication with regard to the idea of self: that is, that there is no thing there that can justify the idea of 'I am' or 'This is mine'.

A couple of references that are right at my fingertips. Unfortunately no digital translations of these suttas are readily available:

an 7.14
an 7.53
an 8.22

EDIT: Here are a couple of discussions concerning this issue you may find interesting:

http://obo.genaud.net/dhammatalk/bd_dha ... etters.htm

http://obo.genaud.net/dhammatalk/bd_dha ... iduals.htm


SECOND EDIT:

Here is one that spells out the full meaning of faith and aserts without reference to the sanyojanas that this person is a Streamwinner:

KS 55.2, PTS, Woodward, translation:

Steeped In

Monks, blessed with four things an Ariyan disciple is a stream-wmner,
not doomed to the Downfall,
one assured,
one bound for enlightenment.

What four?

Herein, monks, an Ariyan disciple is blessed with unwavering loyalty to the Buddha, thus:

He it is, the Exalted One, Arahant, a fully Enlightened One, perfect in knowledge and practice, a Happy One, world-knower, unsurpassed charioteer of men to be tamed, teacher of devas and mankind, a Buddha, Exalted One.

He is blessed with unwavering loyalty to the Norm, thus:

Well proclaimed by the Exalted One is the Norm, seen in this very life, a thing not involving time, inviting oneto come and see, leading onward, to be known for themselves by the wise.

He is blessed with unwavering loyalty to the Order, thus:

Walking righteously is the Exalted One’s Order of Disciples, walking uprightly, walking in the right way, walking dutifully is the Exalted One's Order of Disciples: namely, the four pairs of men, the eight sorts ofmen. That is the Exalted One's Order of Disciples. Worthy of honour are they, worthy of reverence, worthy of offerings, worthy of salutations with clasped hands, — a field of merit unsurpassed for the world.

He is blessed with the virtues dear to the Ariyans, virtues unbroken, whole, unspotted, untarnished, giving freedom, praised by the wise: virtues untainted (by craving or delusion), which lead to concentration of the mind.

Blessed with these four things, monks, the Ariyan disciple is a stream-winner,
one not doomed to the Downfall,
one assured,
one bound for enlightenment.

Thus spake the Exalted One.

Having thus spoken, the Happy One, as teacher, said this: Whoso have faith and virtue, loyalty And insight of the Norm,—in time they win The bliss in which the holy life is steeped.
Best wishes!
obo
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby daverupa » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:34 pm

obo wrote:Retrofuturist's response is not quite correct. There are two [at least! I am not sure where the 'Dhamma-Follower' and 'Faith-freed' fit in] sorts of Sotapana mentioned in the Suttas: One who is such as a consequence of having awakened the Dhamma Eye, that is, he has seen that whatever has come to be is subject to ending, and one who is a 'Faith-Follower'.

The former has broken the first three sanyojanas (yokes to rebirth) which subject one to the possibility of rebirth in lower realms.


Hmm.

There are two stream-approaches and one stream-entrance; the Dhamma-follower and the Conviction-follower are the two approaches, with stream-entry the fruit which can be defined, as you say, as the breaking of the first three fetters.

But this is exactly what Retro has claimed - that the first three fetters are broken/eliminated by the stream-enterer.

(On a related note, per your links at the first edit, you seem to be translating sakkayaditthi as "one-truth-view" but I'm not sure that's accurate...)

---

We can read AN 7.14 here, and reading the footnote to those seven types of individuals we find:

The seven are explained in detail at MN 70.14–21, I 477–79. In brief, the one liberated in both respects and the one liberated by wisdom are two kinds of arahants, distinguished by whether or not they possess the “peaceful formless emancipations transcending form.” The body witness, the one attained to view, and the one liberated by faith are three kinds of trainees, who can range anywhere from stream-enterer to one on the path to arahantship; they have already been discussed at 3:21. The Dhamma follower and the faith follower are two types who have entered the path to stream-entry but have not yet realized the fruit; they are distinguished according to whether wisdom or faith is their dominant faculty. The process by which they enter the path is described at SN 25:1, III 225.


I think there may be an opportunity here to refine your understanding of these nobles.

:heart:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby obo » Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:14 pm

Greetings daverupa

Thank you for your response and concern about my understanding of the Aristocrats and my translation of sakkayaditthi.

I think however that your observation about what I might need to improve on in my understanding is just a tad on the intrusive side. My comment to retrofuturist, whom you appear to need to defend, was not towards him personally, but towards his statement.

I am sure I could benefit by greater understanding of the Aristocrats, especially those of the Non-returner and Arahant variety.

I stand by my translation of sakkayaditthi as one-truth view as one translation among several possibilities. But the question is: why should this translation bother you as it amounts to the same thing for one who sees the Four Truths? And you are aserting by your statements the fact that you do understand what it means to be a Streamwinner.

I wonder if you read the Woodward sutta provided in a third edit of my post. Here there is no mention of anything like those who are on the way (stream approachers) and those who have attained. While I am aware that there is mention of this classification for the sorts of men that constitute the sangha, this sutta and many others are clearly intended to assert that an individual is a streamwinner when they are in the stream whether or not they have crossed the stream. There is more than one scheme provided in the suttas, the alternate being one who has entered the stream and one who has the fruit.

From the point of view of compassion for those who understand the dangers of this world and rebirth and who fear for their destinies because they have awareness of the slightness or incompleteness of their understanding Gotama made several statements making it clear that steadfast faith alone was sufficient to declare streamwinning, and overcome rebirth as an animal, deamon or in hell. To assert otherwise is not a service to them.

I would like to see your sutta sitations (i.e., not sitations from the Abhidhamma) for your statements concerning "stream approacher" not being Streamwinners.

EDIT: PS your quote of AN 7 14 footnote just confirms what I have said.
Best wishes!
obo
may all beings be well and happy
and my I act with friendliness towards all living beings
in whatsoever of the 10 directions they may abide,
may I be sympathetic to their pains and sorrows,
empathize with their situations
and be at all times objectively detached
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby Nyana » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:51 pm

obo wrote:There is more than one scheme provided in the suttas, the alternate being one who has entered the stream and one who has the fruit.

Are you implying that there are contradictory and incompatible schemes provided in the suttas?

And are you suggesting that there are some sotāpannas who are equivalent to fruit-attainers but who haven't terminated the three fetters?
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby obo » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:56 pm

No to either.
Best wishes!
obo
may all beings be well and happy
and my I act with friendliness towards all living beings
in whatsoever of the 10 directions they may abide,
may I be sympathetic to their pains and sorrows,
empathize with their situations
and be at all times objectively detached
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby daverupa » Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:02 pm

obo wrote:towards his statement.


That's indeed all we're talking about: statements.

I stand by my translation of sakkayaditthi as one-truth view as one translation among several possibilities.


Perhaps; I don't see how 'sakkaya' renders 'one truth'. I understand that sakkayaditthi arises as a result of taking an aggregate as "I am". It is embodied-view; a view which has taken up an aggregate as 'me'. Identity-view is another option which seems to map onto the Pali fairly well. "One-truth-view" does not appear to me to map so well, but I would like to see discussion on this point. Maybe a thread in the Pali subforum would be best for this pursuit...

an individual is a streamwinner when they are in the stream whether or not they have crossed the stream.


Our context here revolves around the three fetters, so to be clear we can say that a stream-winner and a stream-enterer are the same term; there are dhamma-followers & faith-followers who are on the path to stream-entry & who yet retain the three fetters, and there are stream-entrants/winners who enjoy the concomitant fruit of that noble stage, which is the cessation of those fetters.

One who has crossed the stream is an arahant, not a streamwinner.

Gotama made several statements making it clear that steadfast faith alone was sufficient to declare streamwinning, and overcome rebirth as an animal, deamon or in hell. To assert otherwise is not a service to them.


Well, to be sure, steadfast saddha in the triple gem and unbroken virtue dear to the noble ones are mentioned together, but right view is an essential component which "steadfast faith alone" doesn't seem to address.

I would like to see your sutta sitations (i.e., not sitations from the Abhidhamma) for your statements concerning "stream approacher" not being Streamwinners.


The two follower types are different from the streamwinner, which is why they are distinguished in SN 25.1, cited above in the footnote.

The other citations are also all suttas, so this last comment of yours is perplexing.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby Nyana » Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:15 pm

obo wrote:No to either.

So then the differentiation you are making is between the sotāpanna path-attainer and the sotāpanna fruit-attainer?
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby obo » Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:41 pm

Hello Nayana

"So then the differentiation you are making is between the sotapanna path-attainer and the sotapanna fruit-attainer?"


No. I am not making any differentiations. In the suttas we find the sotapanna as path-attainer, attainer, fruit-attainer, usually paired either as the first and second, or the second and third. We also very frequently find the Sotapanna mentioned without reference to path or fruit or as I pointed out, the sanyojanas.

My point posting here was to short circuit the assertion that the streamwinner must have broken the first three sanyojanas where it is clear in many suttas that Gotama is saying that [as well as that] a person can consider themselves a Streamwinner if they can see in themselves the steadfast faith as described in SN 5.55.2 and in subsequent suttas in that Samyutta and in numerous other places throughout the suttas.

To make the satement made by retrofuturist is to go too far and could cause doubt and fear in beginners who nevertheless strongly believe that Gotama has the answer to the problem of Pain.
Best wishes!
obo
may all beings be well and happy
and my I act with friendliness towards all living beings
in whatsoever of the 10 directions they may abide,
may I be sympathetic to their pains and sorrows,
empathize with their situations
and be at all times objectively detached
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby Nyana » Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:59 pm

obo wrote:
"So then the differentiation you are making is between the sotapanna path-attainer and the sotapanna fruit-attainer?"

No. I am not making any differentiations. In the suttas we find the sotapanna as path-attainer, attainer, fruit-attainer, usually paired either as the first and second, or the second and third. We also very frequently find the Sotapanna mentioned without reference to path or fruit or as I pointed out, the sanyojanas.

My point posting here was to short circuit the assertion that the streamwinner must have broken the first three sanyojanas where it is clear in many suttas that Gotama is saying that [as well as that] a person can consider themselves a Streamwinner if they can see in themselves the steadfast faith as described in SN 5.55.2 and in subsequent suttas in that Samyutta and in numerous other places throughout the suttas.

Well, it seems to me that differentiating between the sotāpanna path-attainer and the sotāpanna fruit-attainer resolves this issue: the former has not yet eliminated the three fetters whereas the latter has eliminated them.
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby daverupa » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:03 pm

Nyana wrote:Well, it seems to me that differentiating between the sotāpanna path-attainer and the sotāpanna fruit-attainer resolves this issue: the former has not yet eliminated the three fetters whereas the latter has eliminated them.


Is a faith-follower a path-attainer?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby obo » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:43 pm

Hello Nayana and daverupa

daverupa
I don't see any need for a differentiation, but also I don't see any harm.

Nayana
A faith-follower would be a path-attainer and as long as the faith was not shaken, a Streamwinner. And there are those who use faith as their primary vehical all the way out.
Best wishes!
obo
may all beings be well and happy
and my I act with friendliness towards all living beings
in whatsoever of the 10 directions they may abide,
may I be sympathetic to their pains and sorrows,
empathize with their situations
and be at all times objectively detached
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby Nyana » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:00 pm

daverupa wrote:Is a faith-follower a path-attainer?

According to the Puggalapaññatti a faith-follower and a dhamma-follower are both developing the noble path to realize the sotāpanna fruition. This reference to the noble path is generally understood to imply that they are therefore both path attainers (although this label isn't explicitly used). When a faith-follower attains the fruit they are referred to as "liberated-by-faith" (saddhāvimutta). When a dhamma-follower attains the fruit they are referred to as "attained-to-view" (diṭṭhipatta).
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby santa100 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:08 am

SarathW wrote:The way I understand, the three fetters are attenuated by attaining Sotapanna and will be fully eradicated only by realising Nibbana.
Am I correct?


Not according to MN 118 ( http://palicanon.org/index.php/sutta-pi ... -breathing ):
In this Sangha of bhikkhus there are bhikkhus who, with the destruction of the three fetters, are stream-enterers, no longer subject to perdition, bound [for deliverance], headed for enlightenment—such bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of bhikkhus
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby chownah » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:37 am

Santa100,
Your MN118 reference seems to be saying that eliminating the three fetters is adequate for classification as stream-enterer but it does not say that elimination of the three fetters is the only way to obtain classification as a stream-enterer....this leaves the door open for the possibility that there is a way to be classified as a stream-enterer without having eliminated the three fetters.....I guess......
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby santa100 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:13 am

chownah wrote:Your MN118 reference seems to be saying that eliminating the three fetters is adequate for classification as stream-enterer but it does not say that elimination of the three fetters is the only way to obtain classification as a stream-enterer....this leaves the door open for the possibility that there is a way to be classified as a stream-enterer without having eliminated the three fetters.....I guess......


That'd be true had stream entry was the only fruit mentioned in the sutta. However, notice MN 118 mentioned the full range of other fruits (starting from the highest fruit of arahants down to the trainees who are working on the foundations of mindfulness and breath meditation). Since stream entry was listed 3rd from the bottom, that'd mean the destruction of the 3 fetters is needed to qualify one for that fruit..
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby chownah » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:25 am

santa100 wrote:
chownah wrote:Your MN118 reference seems to be saying that eliminating the three fetters is adequate for classification as stream-enterer but it does not say that elimination of the three fetters is the only way to obtain classification as a stream-enterer....this leaves the door open for the possibility that there is a way to be classified as a stream-enterer without having eliminated the three fetters.....I guess......


That'd be true had stream entry was the only fruit mentioned in the sutta. However, notice MN 118 mentioned the full range of other fruits (starting from the highest fruit of arahants down to the trainees who are working on the foundations of mindfulness and breath meditation). Since stream entry was listed 3rd from the bottom, that'd mean the destruction of the 3 fetters is needed to qualify one for that fruit..

The mentioning of all these classifications came about when the Buddha was describing members of the audience who were in attendance. As such those words were descriptions of actual people attending and as such I am always hesitant to accept those words as iron clad definitions for a fixed classification scheme.....I think that if the Buddha intended to give iron clad definitions for a fixed classification scheme he would have clearly stated that as his intention. Also it seems that it made a rather powerful introduction to his talk by mentioning people actually present and then bridging over neatly to breath meditation.

You may very well be correct in your assessment of the meaning of the buddha's words but I don't think that it is explicitly spelled out in that Sutta.
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Re: Are first three fetters fully eliminated by a Sotapanna?

Postby santa100 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:47 pm

chownah wrote:
You may very well be correct in your assessment of the meaning of the buddha's words but I don't think that it is explicitly spelled out in that Sutta


Actually there're a lot of suttas that explicitly spell it out. Let me know if you find any sutta reference mentioning stream entry with the existence of the 3 fetters..

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/search_r ... ght.org%2F
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