On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby danieLion » Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:51 pm

Gaoxing wrote:
danieLion wrote:
Gaoxing wrote:The Buddha never spoke in terms of philosophical issues....
Never?
Yes. Buddhism is not a philosophy.

That's different from your original statement and it also depends on what you mean by "philosophy."
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby danieLion » Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:55 pm

reflection wrote:Philosophy can also be a practical way of looking at the world. But to argue over this is arguing over vague definitions, not really about Buddhism itself.

Anyway, I came across this sutta:
Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "It is said that the world is empty, the world is empty, lord. In what respect is it said that the world is empty?"

"Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty. And what is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self? The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Forms... Eye-consciousness... Eye-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self.


I don't see how this would be a strategy. It's clearly a statement of there being no self in the world, the aggregates.
No. It is merely a statement of the aggregates as not-self.
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby Gaoxing » Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:45 am

binocular wrote:
chownah wrote:But of course another person's privacy is part of my experience as well as another person's kamma....

Then tell me:
What is my favorite color?
What is it like to be me?
It's a delusion full of suffering.
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby Gaoxing » Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:50 am

danielion wrote:That's different from your original statement and it also depends on what you mean by "philosophy.
Every statement is different. Change is inevitable. With philosophy is meant what the Buddha never did.
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby Gaoxing » Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:54 am

danielion wrote:No. It is merely a statement of the aggregates as not-self.
Correct and that's why there can be no-self. :rofl:
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby danieLion » Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:59 am

Gaoxing wrote:
danielion wrote:With philosophy is meant what the Buddha never did.

Hi Gaoxing,
Never ever?
It depends, among many other things, on whether or not your understanding of the Buddha's teachings is accurate, and--again--on what you mean by "philosophy."
Kindly,
dL
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby Gaoxing » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:20 am

danieLion wrote:
Gaoxing wrote:
danielion wrote:With philosophy is meant what the Buddha never did.

Hi Gaoxing,
Never ever?
It depends, among mant other things, on whether or not your understanding of the Buddha's teachings is accurate, and--again--on what you mean by "philosophy."
Kindly,
dL
Correct but this does not depend on you or me. Right understanding is only a single part of the eightfold path but Dependent Origination works wisdom without your or my opinion complementing right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration.

With philosophy is meant the love(passion) of wisdom as fixed concepts(dogma) in boxes especially western academic materials.
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby Nyana » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:53 am

Gaoxing wrote:With philosophy is meant the love(passion) of wisdom as fixed concepts(dogma) in boxes especially western academic materials.

This seems like a pretty limited perspective with regard to all that has gone on in the name of philosophy in the Western tradition. Ancient philosophy was often considered to be integral to all aspects of one's life. In Philosophy as a Way of Life: Spiritual Exercises From Socrates to Foucault, Pierre Hadot summarizes some of the main features of the ancient Western philosophical traditions as follows:

    In the view of all philosophical schools, mankind's principal cause of suffering, disorder, and unconsciousness were the passions: that is, unregulated desires and exaggerated fears. People are prevented from truly living, it was taught, because they are dominated by worries. Philosophy thus appears, in the first place, as a therapeutic of the passions.... Each school had its own therapeutic method, but all of them linked their therapeutics to a profound transformation of the individual's mode of seeing and being. The object of spiritual exercises is precisely to bring about this transformation.
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby Gaoxing » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:10 am

Nyana wrote:
Gaoxing wrote:With philosophy is meant the love(passion) of wisdom as fixed concepts(dogma) in boxes especially western academic materials.

This seems like a pretty limited perspective with regard to all that has gone on in the name of philosophy in the Western tradition. Ancient philosophy was often considered to be integral to all aspects of one's life. In Philosophy as a Way of Life: Spiritual Exercises From Socrates to Foucault, Pierre Hadot summarizes some of the main features of the ancient Western philosophical traditions as follows:

    In the view of all philosophical schools, mankind's principal cause of suffering, disorder, and unconsciousness were the passions: that is, unregulated desires and exaggerated fears. People are prevented from truly living, it was taught, because they are dominated by worries. Philosophy thus appears, in the first place, as a therapeutic of the passions.... Each school had its own therapeutic method, but all of them linked their therapeutics to a profound transformation of the individual's mode of seeing and being. The object of spiritual exercises is precisely to bring about this transformation.
We're talking about the teachings of the Buddha. It is more than 2500 years old. Indian philosophy as in Wisdom philosophies started about 600BCE and modern philosophy around 1600CE

What philosophy is found in Buddhist practice?
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby Nyana » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:53 am

Gaoxing wrote:What philosophy is found in Buddhist practice?

There are some similarities in ancient Western variations of askēsis to aspects of Buddhist practice. And Buddhist practice has also been informed by ethics, epistemology, logic, etc. Although the ancient Buddhists didn't develop ethical theories the way that the Greeks did, they did have an interest in epistemology and logic, culminating in the writings of Dignāga and Dharmakīrti, and the commentaries on their works. Similar ideas were also taken up by Pāli commentators.
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:01 pm

Gaoxing wrote:What philosophy is found in Buddhist practice?


Assumptions about the 3 characteristics seem quite philosophical.
Well, oi dunno...
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby Gaoxing » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:27 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Gaoxing wrote:What philosophy is found in Buddhist practice?


Assumptions about the 3 characteristics seem quite philosophical.
Sure but do you think the Buddha taught assumptions?
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby danieLion » Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:31 am

Gaoxing wrote:With philosophy is meant the love(passion) of wisdom as fixed concepts(dogma) in boxes especially western academic materials.

Hi Gaoxing,
I agree with Nyana. Also: Socrates was neither western nor academic. For Socrates philosphy was the pursuit of wisdom where wisdom is the capacity for sound judgment. Until it was Hellenized, Greece was quite eastern, and even after that, it retained many eastern elements. Christianity, which influenced much of "western 'philosophy'", is technically an eastern religion, as its "roots" are Hebraic.
Kindly,
dL
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby danieLion » Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:33 am

Gaoxing wrote:
danielion wrote:No. It is merely a statement of the aggregates as not-self.
Correct and that's why there can be no-self. :rofl:

Hi Gaoxing,
Illogical.
Kindly,
dL
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby danieLion » Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:48 am

Gaoxing wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
Gaoxing wrote:What philosophy is found in Buddhist practice?
Assumptions about the 3 characteristics seem quite philosophical.
Sure but do you think the Buddha taught assumptions?

Hi Gaoxing, Spiny,
Assumptions are not necessarily inaccuracies. The ti-lakkhana are forms of saññā (one of the khanda). They are assumptions and as such reinforce why saddhā is important for followers of the Buddha. We assume his assumptions are correct until we can assume they're correct for ourselves through confirmed saddhā. The philosophical paradox of understanding dukkha is that it leads to true happiness. The philosophical paradox of understanding anicca is that it is a reliable perceptual aid to liberation. The philosophical paradox of understanding anattā is that it leads to supreme self-confidence.
Kindly,
dL
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby danieLion » Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:54 am

Gaoxing wrote:
danieLion wrote:...mant...

Hi Gaoxing,
Thank you for noticing my typo.
Kindly,
dL
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Postby danieLion » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:02 am

danieLion wrote:
Gaoxing wrote:
danielion wrote:With philosophy is meant what the Buddha never did.

Hi Gaoxing,
Never ever?
It depends, among mant other things, on whether or not your understanding of the Buddha's teachings is accurate, and--again--on what you mean by "philosophy."
Kindly,
dL

Hi Gaoxing,
Above, you've misattributed to my self a statement made by your self.
Kindly,
dL
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