The vinaya should be updated

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Coyote
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Re: The vinaya should be updated

Post by Coyote »

binocular wrote: All the legal drugs like coffee, tea, alcohol, nicotine only make me sleepy, drowsy.
I have no idea how people can function after having drunk a cup of coffee in the morning. I'd fall asleep.
I no longer drink caffeinated coffee, mainly because it disrupts my sleeping patterns and causes headaches and sickness if I missed my morning cup. The few times I have had coffee recently made me initially full of energy, but it soon gave way to tiredness, like a sugar slump. Tea isn't too bad, and I usually have a cup in the afternoon.
I think nicotine/cigarettes are borderline because of the addiction tenancy. Since tea and coffee do not have this effect unless you are a heavy drinker, I don't think the ban on intoxicants should include them.
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DNS
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Re: The vinaya should be updated

Post by DNS »

Re: dwarfs

Ven. Bhaddiya was a dwarf during the time of the Buddha, ordained and attained enlightenment.
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. And on that occasion Ven. Bhaddiya the Dwarf, following behind a large number of monks, was going to the Blessed One. From afar, the Blessed One saw Ven. Bhaddiya the Dwarf coming, following behind a large number of monks: ugly, unsightly, stunted, treated with condescension[1] by most of the monks. On seeing him, the Blessed One addressed the monks, "Monks, do you see that monk coming from afar, following behind a large number of monks: ugly, unsightly, stunted, treated with condescension by most of the monks?"

"Yes, lord."

"That, monks, is a monk of great power, great might. The attainment already attained by that monk is not of a sort easily attained. And by means of it he has reached & remains in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself right in the here-&-now."
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Suddh
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Re: The vinaya should be updated

Post by Suddh »

DNS wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:45 am Height does not matter, what matters is mental purification.

Bhaddiya was a dwarf, who attained enlightenment (Udana 7.1 - 7.5)

http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... diya_Sutta" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It later became forbidden to ordain dwarves, however...
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DNS
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Re: The vinaya should be updated

Post by DNS »

Suddh wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 11:55 pm
DNS wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:45 am Height does not matter, what matters is mental purification.

Bhaddiya was a dwarf, who attained enlightenment (Udana 7.1 - 7.5)

http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... diya_Sutta
It later became forbidden to ordain dwarves, however...
I know, which is unfortunate. It doesn't seem to make sense, considering the arahant Bhaddiya.

I recall seeing an article about a dwarf in Thailand who did ordain, but don't remember if there was some controversy over that or not.
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Re: The vinaya should be updated

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Here is the reference in the Vinaya about dwarfs and medical disabilities:
Mahavagga, Khandaka 1, Chapter 71
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1. At that time the Bhikkhus conferred the pabbajjā ordination on a person whose hands were cut off, on a person whose feet were cut off, whose hands and feet were cut off, whose ears were cut off, whose nose was cut off, whose ears and nose were cut off, whose fingers were cut off, whose thumbs were cut off, whose tendons (of the feet) were cut, who had hands like a snake's hood[1], who was a hump-back, or a dwarf, or a person that had a goitre, that had been branded, that had been scourged, on a proclaimed robber, on a person that had elephantiasis, that was afflicted with bad illness, that gave offence (by any deformity) to those who saw him, on a one-eyed person, on a person with a crooked limb, on a lame person, on a person that was paralysed on one side, on a cripple[2], on a person weak from age, on a blind man, on a dumb man, on a deaf man, on a blind and dumb man, on a blind and deaf man, on a deaf and dumb man, on a blind, deaf and dumb man.

They told this thing to the Blessed One.

“Let no person, O Bhikkhus, whose hands are cut off, receive the pabbajjā ordination. Let no person whose feet are cut off, receive the pabbajjā ordination, &c. (each of the above cases being here repeated). He who confers the pabbajjā ordination (on such persons), is guilty of a dukkaṭa offence.”

Here end the thirty-two cases in which pabbajjā. is forbidden.
https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... 70064.html

I suppose medical disabilities could place a burden on lay people for their health care, however, a dwarf wouldn't necessarily place any extra medical care on the lay people, afaik.
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Re: The vinaya should be updated

Post by Suddh »

DNS wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2024 12:10 am
Suddh wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 11:55 pm
DNS wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:45 am Height does not matter, what matters is mental purification.

Bhaddiya was a dwarf, who attained enlightenment (Udana 7.1 - 7.5)

http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... diya_Sutta
It later became forbidden to ordain dwarves, however...
I know, which is unfortunate. It doesn't seem to make sense, considering the arahant Bhaddiya.

I recall seeing an article about a dwarf in Thailand who did ordain, but don't remember if there was some controversy over that or not.
From BMC 2:
Again, some people have questioned the compassion behind these prohibitions, but the point of the prohibitions is to keep the bhikkhus from being burdened with looking after those who are a burden or an embarrassment to their families. There is at least one case in the Canon of a dwarf who ordained and became an arahant (Ud.VII.1-2), but apparently he, like Aṅgulimāla, was accepted into the Community by the Buddha himself. If it so happens that a bhikkhu develops any of these handicaps after his ordination—e.g., he goes blind or loses a limb—he need not disrobe, and his fellow bhikkhus are duty-bound to care for him
There is still a joke in Thailand, based in truth, that people often throw away undesirable dogs, cats and people into monasteries so that they don't have to deal with them themselves.

I've met a few monks in Thailand who probably should not have been allowed to ordain, but - pandakas aside (a notoriously difficult term) - once they're in they're in. There's a relatively well-known dwarf-novice who's been around quite a while - when I met him he seemed very happy with being a samanera.
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Re: The vinaya should be updated

Post by Suddh »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:32 am I would like to discuss the vinaya. From my understanding Buddha put the rules of the vinaya in place to restrain the monks and nuns and also to keep the sangha in good standing with the culture at large.


Based on this, in my opinion, the vinaya should be amended to ban smoking and caffeine (including tea). I think this because they are intoxicants that lead one to sensuality and craving. I also think that if Buddha was aware of caffeine and nictonine in his own time he would have banned them under the vinaya.


Leading on from this I think the ban on dwarfs should be lifted as these are no longer subject to serious social stigmata as they used to be.


Thoughts?
Tea is forbidden in Myanmar on the basis that it's eaten as a food there. Most everywhere else it's seen as a mild stimulant with many medicinal properties, not an intoxicant. If its direct influence doesn't lead to an increased likelihood of breaking the precepts there seems no reasonable basis for banning it.

Many teachers choose to ban smoking in their monasteries, though by no means all. I know one monk who smokes one a day as it effectively helps to relieve his arthritic pains. Many skilled meditators smoke heavily and in fact smoke-medicine is explicitly allowed in the Vinaya. So it's one of those matters that is up to the individual practitioner's discretion to examine their motives and the effect it has on their minds.

Even rice and bread can be a basis for sensual craving. If we were to follow that as a standard for what's allowable the Sangha would quickly starve to death.

As the Buddha said at the end of his life - not adding to or subtracting from the Vinaya is a condition for the Sangha's non-decline. Lifting bans that the Buddha himself put in place would be a cause for decline.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: The vinaya should be updated

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Tea is not banned in Burma, but it is treated as food, not life-time medicine.

Green Tea is prohibited for use as a medicine, for the reason that you stated. Infusion of leaves are permitted, provided the leaves are not used as edible food, e.g. black tea should be allowed, but not green tea or cabbage soup.

I occasionally take black tea in the afternoons as a mild stimulant that alleviates sloth and torpor. Black coffee I use in the same way. I also take black tea with milk at the right time, i.e. before midday, but teabags used as food are not mixed with those used as life-time medicine. Seven-day medicine, such as sugar or honey, cannot be mixed with lifetime medicine.
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2600htz
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Re: The vinaya should be updated

Post by 2600htz »

I dont know.
Im sure some new rules could be of benefit in this century. But also the danger of changing things is probably greater. Maybe today is "no tea", but tomorrow some absurd idea.

Regards
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