the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
binocular
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by binocular »

Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Some of us use the teaching of rebirth, some of us don't but we are all still Buddhists :)
Of course.
Just to be clear, Spiny: Do you regard positively the traditional teachings on kamma and rebirth?

What I don't get is the need some people have to marginalise these teachings, the need to prove they're irrelevant / misunderstood / later additions etc. I don't get the need to promote a very particular version of the Dhamma, even to the extent of setting up new forums to do so.
I think I do understand it, though. It's rather controversial. :juggling:
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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

binocular wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Some of us use the teaching of rebirth, some of us don't but we are all still Buddhists :)
Of course.
Just to be clear, Spiny: Do you regard positively the traditional teachings on kamma and rebirth?

What I don't get is the need some people have to marginalise these teachings, the need to prove they're irrelevant / misunderstood / later additions etc. I don't get the need to promote a very particular version of the Dhamma, even to the extent of setting up new forums to do so.
I think I do understand it, though. It's rather controversial. :juggling:
I'm open to both traditional and contemporary interpretations, but I don't feel a need to reject one in favour of the other. I sense that in some cases the rejection of traditional interpretations stems from aversion rather than from an objective reading of the suttas - in which case I think a more honest response would be to adopt secular Buddhism.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

I'm open to both traditional and contemporary interpretations, but I don't feel a need to reject one in favour of the other. I sense that in some cases the rejection of traditional interpretations stems from aversion rather than from an objective reading of the suttas - in which case I think a more honest response would be to adopt secular Buddhism.
And one can easily say that those who have a view of rebirth are clinging to a sense of self and clinging to doctrines and views, but as this thread has shown (by nearly approaching 200 posts) saying such things to each other gets us no where.

Instead we should just focus on dukkha and practice to overcome it in the here and now and help each other to do so, we should promote unity in the sangha and not argue and argue.

In ultimate terms rebirth isn't important to those who accept it and to those who don't since we should all practice to let go and stop giving birth to "i am" in there here and now ... And if that stops the birth of "I am" in some future life even better, in ultimate terms if we all focus on the practice in the here and now then we are all winners :)


Even If rebirth is true, or Valhalla or oblivion it's all not self. It's not "your" death, your rebirth or your oblivion.


Rebirth, Realist fact or just a view ... Or both, should be let go of.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

As this thread has popped up again, I just can't resist another Ajahn Sumedho quote ....

The only thing that’s certain about the future—the death of the body—is something we try to ignore. Just thinking about the word death stops the mind, doesn’t it? It does for me. It’s not particularly polite or politically correct to speak of death in casual conversation. What is death? What will happen when I die? Not knowing upsets us. But it is unknown, isn’t it? We don’t know what will happen when the body dies.

We have various theories—like reincarnation or being rewarded by a better rebirth or being punished by a worse birth. Some people speculate that once you’ve attained human birth, you may still be reborn as a lower creature. And then there’s the school that says no, once you’ve taken birth in the human form, then you cannot be reborn as a lower creature. Or the belief in oblivion—once you’re dead, you’re dead. That’s it. Nothing left. Finito. The truth of the matter is that nobody really knows. So we often just ignore it or suppress it.

But this is all happening in the now. We’re thinking of the concept of death in the present. The way the word death affects consciousness is like this. This is knowing not knowing in the now. It’s not trying to prove any theory. It’s knowing: the breath is like this; the body like this; the moods and mental states are like this. This is developing the path. Saying “like this” is just a way of reminding oneself to see this moment as it is rather than to be caught in some idea that we’ve got to do something or find something or control something or get rid of something.

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... nd_Now.htm
:meditate:

.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

But this is all happening in the now. We’re thinking of the concept of death in the present. The way the word death affects consciousness is like this. This is knowing not knowing in the now. It’s not trying to prove any theory. It’s knowing: the breath is like this; the body like this; the moods and mental states are like this. This is developing the path. Saying “like this” is just a way of reminding oneself to see this moment as it is rather than to be caught in some idea that we’ve got to do something or find something or control something or get rid of something.

This is exactly my point. Instead of arguing about if rebirth is real or not I think it would be more skilful to focus on our reaction to the view it's self, do we avert from it or cling to it etc
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

clw_uk wrote:
But this is all happening in the now. We’re thinking of the concept of death in the present. The way the word death affects consciousness is like this. This is knowing not knowing in the now. It’s not trying to prove any theory. It’s knowing: the breath is like this; the body like this; the moods and mental states are like this. This is developing the path. Saying “like this” is just a way of reminding oneself to see this moment as it is rather than to be caught in some idea that we’ve got to do something or find something or control something or get rid of something.

This is exactly my point. Instead of arguing about if rebirth is real or not I think it would be more skilful to focus on our reaction to the view itself, do we avert from it or cling to it etc

Absolutely :thumbsup:
binocular
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by binocular »

clw_uk wrote:And one can easily say that those who have a view of rebirth are clinging to a sense of self and clinging to doctrines and views, but as this thread has shown (by nearly approaching 200 posts) saying such things to each other gets us no where.

Instead we should just focus on dukkha and practice to overcome it in the here and now and help each other to do so, we should promote unity in the sangha and not argue and argue.
And in order to do that, we do have to cling to a view - namely, Right View.

Rebirth, Realist fact or just a view ... Or both, should be let go of.
The issue is, when.
One shouldn't let go of the raft before one has crossed the river.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Spiny Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

clw_uk wrote: Instead of arguing about if rebirth is real or not I think it would be more skilful to focus on our reaction to the view it's self, do we avert from it or cling to it etc
The great bulk of this debate isn't about whether rebirth is "real" or not, it's about how the suttas should be interpreted - and in fact many of the topics on this forum are concerned directly or indirectly with sutta interpretation. Though of course people's underlying beliefs and disbeliefs inform their opinions.

So on that basis rebirth is an entirely valid topic for discussion, not something to be swept under the carpet because a few people feel uncomfortable about it or want to marginalise it, or whatever.

If rebirth isn't something you want to discuss, then there is no obligation to post in this thread.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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BlackBird
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by BlackBird »

clw_uk wrote: Rebirth, Realist fact or just a view ... Or both, should be let go of.
I think my belief in rebirth can have a positive influence on my practice, so while it still provides utility, I will continue to use it as a motivator. I'm not about to go on a crusade to make other accept my beliefs however, I think you're quite right in your assertion that such things are foolish :)

metta
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"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote: Instead of arguing about if rebirth is real or not I think it would be more skilful to focus on our reaction to the view it's self, do we avert from it or cling to it etc
The great bulk of this debate isn't about whether rebirth is "real" or not, it's about how the suttas should be interpreted - and in fact many of the topics on this forum are concerned directly or indirectly with sutta interpretation. Though of course people's underlying beliefs and disbeliefs inform their opinions.

So on that basis rebirth is an entirely valid topic for discussion, not something to be swept under the carpet because a few people feel uncomfortable about it or want to marginalise it, or whatever.

If rebirth isn't something you want to discuss, then there is no obligation to post in this thread.
I don't see any harm in someone including an opinion in this thread (in the "Open Dhamma" forum) about the various attitudes that people might have towards rebirth belief - and then offering a suggestion about how that could be addressed . I haven't seen any rule which states that posters aren't allowed to do that.
:)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

binocular wrote:
clw_uk wrote:And one can easily say that those who have a view of rebirth are clinging to a sense of self and clinging to doctrines and views, but as this thread has shown (by nearly approaching 200 posts) saying such things to each other gets us no where.

Instead we should just focus on dukkha and practice to overcome it in the here and now and help each other to do so, we should promote unity in the sangha and not argue and argue.
And in order to do that, we do have to cling to a view - namely, Right View.

Rebirth, Realist fact or just a view ... Or both, should be let go of.
The issue is, when.
One shouldn't let go of the raft before one has crossed the river.

And yet Buddha taught two types of right view, right view with taints (rebirth view) and right view without taints (wisdom)... Both can lead to nibbna but not all need the first to have the second.


And no one should let go of the raft till the far shore is reached however one should see the raft as it is. As
Anathapindika said
When this had been said, the wanderers said to Anathapindika the householder, "We have each & every one expounded to you in line with our own positions. Now tell us what views you have."

"Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. This is the sort of view I have."

"So, householder, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. You thus adhere to that very stress, submit yourself to that very stress."

"Venerable sirs, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. Having seen this well with right discernment as it actually is present, I also discern the higher escape from it as it actually is present."

When this had been said, the wanderers fell silent, abashed, sitting with their shoulders drooping, their heads down, brooding, at a loss for words. Anathapindika the householder, perceiving that the wanderers were silent, abashed... at a loss for words, got up & went to where the Blessed One was staying. On arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, he sat to one side. As he was seated there, he told the Blessed One the entirety of his conversation with the wanderers.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

The great bulk of this debate isn't about whether rebirth is "real" or not, it's about how the suttas should be interpreted - and in fact many of the topics on this forum are concerned directly or indirectly with sutta interpretation. Though of course people's underlying beliefs and disbeliefs inform their opinions.

So on that basis rebirth is an entirely valid topic for discussion, not something to be swept under the carpet because a few people feel uncomfortable about it or want to marginalise it, or whatever.

If rebirth isn't something you want to discuss, then there is no obligation to post in this post
Doses the validity of rebirth impact on your practice of buddhadhamma?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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BlackBird
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by BlackBird »

clw_uk wrote:
Doses the validity of rebirth impact on your practice of buddhadhamma?
I can't speak for him, but the validity of it certainly is an important part of my Saddha.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

BlackBird wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Doses the validity of rebirth impact on your practice of buddhadhamma?
I can't speak for him, but the validity of it certainly is an important part of my Saddha.

Out of interest can I ask why?

If "you" are reborn its only anicca, dukkha and anatta. A future life doesn't belong to you just like this one doesn't :)

Isn't it true that dukkha still exist's regardless of if "you" are reborn or not?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Spiny Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

Aloka wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote: Instead of arguing about if rebirth is real or not I think it would be more skilful to focus on our reaction to the view it's self, do we avert from it or cling to it etc
The great bulk of this debate isn't about whether rebirth is "real" or not, it's about how the suttas should be interpreted - and in fact many of the topics on this forum are concerned directly or indirectly with sutta interpretation. Though of course people's underlying beliefs and disbeliefs inform their opinions.

So on that basis rebirth is an entirely valid topic for discussion, not something to be swept under the carpet because a few people feel uncomfortable about it or want to marginalise it, or whatever.

If rebirth isn't something you want to discuss, then there is no obligation to post in this thread.
I don't see any harm in someone including an opinion in this thread (in the "Open Dhamma" forum) about the various attitudes that people might have towards rebirth belief - and then offering a suggestion about how that could be addressed . I haven't seen any rule which states that posters aren't allowed to do that.
:)
But regularly barging in to a discussion just to say "this discussion is pointless" seems a bit rude to me.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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