Anatta takes out metta

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
barcsimalsi
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Post by barcsimalsi »

Aloka wrote:
barcsimalsi wrote: It still looks like a wishful thinking that brings the mind to the future.
That shouldn't be happening because its not about speculating about how well being is going to happen in the future, its about being with the breath and the practice of generating metta in the present. When the practice is ended the mind just relaxes in metta and goodwill beyond concepts.
Thanks for explaining. Is it possible to experience metta without chanting any verse?
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PadmaPhala
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Post by PadmaPhala »

barcsimalsi wrote:Mental suffering is a conditional feeling aggregate. If one does not regard the feeling aggregate as self, how can one think one suffers?
i concur 108%
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PadmaPhala
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Post by PadmaPhala »

barcsimalsi wrote:One more thing i don't understand about cultivating metta-karuna is when we wish others to be good, isn't that consider an expectation which defeat the main dhamma practice of accepting the way things are?

Surely it feels happy to wish and have everyone in good form but the state of mind that was expecting something positive rather than just let things go and make peace with the present is somehow counterproductive to the practice, at least this is how i see.

Please address any mistake.

Thanks again everyone.
Shakyamuni left because of maitri towards himself [enlightened self-interest].
a MahaBrahma insisted that he better teach than keep it to himself because of karuna and maitri.
Shakyamuni accepted because of Upekkha.
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Aloka
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Post by Aloka »

barcsimalsi wrote: Thanks for explaining. Is it possible to experience metta without chanting any verse?
Yes, there's a 5 minute Metta instruction from Ajahn Jayasaro here:

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manas
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Post by manas »

barcsimalsi wrote: "every beings is made up of 5 aggregates and they are all not-self so why must i waste my time cultivating metta towards those impermanent aggregates."
Because dukkha is real, and it is being experienced right now by countless beings, in a range encompassing anything from constant itchiness to unbearable, unending torture. Suffering is happening. And it hurts.

The not-self contemplation is meant for letting go of clinging to what is not self, it's not meant to turn us into nihilists.

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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SDC
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

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Metta - Universal benevolence. Concern for well being. "May I be well, comfortable, peaceful and happy." First and foremost understand that you want for yourself and make sure that you want it. It has to start towards oneself. Do you want to be well, comfortable, peaceful and happy? Most likely, but still take to time to apply it to your situation. Take the time to see how it fits in and take time to develop this wish towards oneself.

Once it is understood and developed somewhat then begin to extend that same level of concern to others. Wish that same wish for them. You are not setting any expectation for what they should do. You are showing concern for their well being. You want them to have that same level of peace that you want. This is NOT about asking anyone to a good person. This is about extending a once personal concern for well being to others.

Over time this benevolent concern will deepen. This depth aspect of metta is called karuna, sometimes defined as compassion. This is fine, but understand that karuna is the depth of the metta. I would even go as far as to say that karuna is a measure of the sincerity of which you are concerned for the well being both of yourself and others. This sincerity, when properly developed, will bring about an equalization effect with which the idea of self begins to weaken and dissolve amongst this broad reaching concern for all beings. How can the self stand out as significant and relevant when a mosquito in Afghanistan is valued just as much? The selfish power diminishes. This equalization brings about a tremendous feeling of joy called mudita.

There may be “no self” but do not disregard that SOMETHING IS HAPPENING. :tongue: There is the experience of a self and the experience of other selves out there and the development of the brahmavihāras helps clarify the US vs THEM situation. It puts this idea of self in perspective. If your "not self" ideas are taking out your concern for the well being of others consider the possibility that you may be asking those people to be something more than well, comfortable, peaceful and happy. And if that is the case it has gone beyond metta.

I hope this helps.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
SarathW
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Post by SarathW »

Anatta should be contemplated with Anicca and Dukkha as well. (three characteristics of existence)
Once you realise these three you will naturally inclined to practice Brahmaviharas.
When I sit on a chair I will make sure, it got at least three legs. :)
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barcsimalsi
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Post by barcsimalsi »

Thanks to everyone.
SDC wrote:Metta - Universal benevolence. Concern for well being. "May I be well, comfortable, peaceful and happy." First and foremost understand that you want for yourself and make sure that you want it. It has to start towards oneself. Do you want to be well, comfortable, peaceful and happy? Most likely, but still take to time to apply it to your situation. Take the time to see how it fits in and take time to develop this wish towards oneself.

Once it is understood and developed somewhat then begin to extend that same level of concern to others. Wish that same wish for them. You are not setting any expectation for what they should do. You are showing concern for their well being. You want them to have that same level of peace that you want. This is NOT about asking anyone to a good person. This is about extending a once personal concern for well being to others.

Over time this benevolent concern will deepen. This depth aspect of metta is called karuna, sometimes defined as compassion. This is fine, but understand that karuna is the depth of the metta. I would even go as far as to say that karuna is a measure of the sincerity of which you are concerned for the well being both of yourself and others. This sincerity, when properly developed, will bring about an equalization effect with which the idea of self begins to weaken and dissolve amongst this broad reaching concern for all beings. How can the self stand out as significant and relevant when a mosquito in Afghanistan is valued just as much? The selfish power diminishes. This equalization brings about a tremendous feeling of joy called mudita.

There may be “no self” but do not disregard that SOMETHING IS HAPPENING. :tongue: There is the experience of a self and the experience of other selves out there and the development of the brahmavihāras helps clarify the US vs THEM situation. It puts this idea of self in perspective. If your "not self" ideas are taking out your concern for the well being of others consider the possibility that you may be asking those people to be something more than well, comfortable, peaceful and happy. And if that is the case it has gone beyond metta.

I hope this helps.
Thanks SDC for bringing this up. I just notice for the whole time that my thought seemed to link the word "concern" with disturbance. Maybe this is why i was being so reluctant to cultivate metta-karuna, it is also been my habitual response to deprive any concerns with anatta, annica and dukkha.

I'm still confuse where to start as my practice of anapanasati and satipatthana is heavily related to the contemplation towards the aggregates with anatta-annica-dukkha.
SarathW wrote:Anatta should be contemplated with Anicca and Dukkha as well. (three characteristics of existence)
Once you realise these three you will naturally inclined to practice Brahmaviharas.
When I sit on a chair I will make sure, it got at least three legs. :)
Does it mean i had to be close in culminating the satipatthana practice before starting brahmaviharas?
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SDC
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

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barcsimalsi wrote:Thanks SDC for bringing this up. I just notice for the whole time that my thought seemed to link the word "concern" with disturbance. Maybe this is why i was being so reluctant to cultivate metta-karuna, it is also been my habitual response to deprive any concerns with anatta, annica and dukkha.
This is just a thought and I may be wrong. So please take this with a grain of salt.

Be careful of how often, and for what reason, you drawn upon these concepts because they have a tendency to neutralize the thinking process. While you may be immediately eliminating a concern or some other problem, you may also find that you are eliminating an opportunity to acquire knowledge about your experience.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Aloka
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Post by Aloka »

I think the purpose of practice, isn't to block out thoughts, but to understand them and gently let them go again if they're negative - and to maintain awareness, clarity and a relaxed and peaceful mind. Some additional metta practice can help with the development of this relaxation and tranquilty.

We still need some kind of thinking process to accomplish everyday tasks however, and to be kind and considerate towards other sentient beings with whom we share our planet. A more peaceful mind helps one to be more successful in dealing with situations in general, as they arise.
barcsimalsi
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Post by barcsimalsi »

Aloka wrote:I think the purpose of practice, isn't to block out thoughts, but to understand them and gently let them go again if they're negative - and to maintain awareness, clarity and a relaxed and peaceful mind. Some additional metta practice can help with the development of this relaxation and tranquilty.

We still need some kind of thinking process to accomplish everyday tasks however, and to be kind and considerate towards other sentient beings with whom we share our planet. A more peaceful mind helps one to be more successful in dealing with situations in general, as they arise.
Agreed. It appears to me that concern to the world is a distracting thought and i had been responding to it by excluding the metta practice all along. Although restlessness is overcome, compassion isn't there.

I tried the metta instruction by A Jayasaro and B Thanissaro, it is still hard for me to not see the aggregates when imagine the form of cute puppy or children or even loved ones. Besides that, the intention of generating meta-karuna to lovely and cute forms tend to become lost in sensual affection most of the time. But when mindfulness is regained, the reflection of not-self aggregates is back to stop me from wishing. So i was like going back and forth.

The reflection of not-self aggregates seems to tail-gate my mindfulness, i don't even feel necessary to wish myself good luck. There's also a deep impression in my thought that the more i wish the more i'm not content. How to deal with this?
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reflection
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Post by reflection »

Hi,

By the nature of the path, more insight leads to more peace, more metta, more compassion. I think it is very important to look at those indicators to judge our path. If our insights or ideas don't lead to this, they are not helpful, most likely not right. As it seems to me, your reflection of the aggregates may not be correct or not based upon the right experiences. Otherwise it would naturally lead to metta. Because if you have (part of) a founded understanding of anatta, you can let go more easily. Metta and compassion arise by themselves through this letting go (of ill will/anger). You wouldn't even really need a specific object. So as I suggested before, see if you can put aside the way you see anatta, at the very least when doing metta meditation. And/or try more samatha practice instead of insight focused reflections. I think it'll work.

Metta,
Reflection
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lyndon taylor
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Post by lyndon taylor »

It seems to me Buddhism is a graded path, and developing Metta and compassion would normally come first, before tackling non self. The teaching of non self is just one stage on the path, not the end all that makes everything else fall into line IMHO, though it doesn't hurt the rest of our practise, at least it shouldn't.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

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barcsimalsi
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Post by barcsimalsi »

reflection wrote:Hi,

By the nature of the path, more insight leads to more peace, more metta, more compassion. I think it is very important to look at those indicators to judge our path. If our insights or ideas don't lead to this, they are not helpful, most likely not right. As it seems to me, your reflection of the aggregates may not be correct or not based upon the right experiences. Otherwise it would naturally lead to metta. Because if you have (part of) a founded understanding of anatta, you can let go more easily. Metta and compassion arise by themselves through this letting go (of ill will/anger). You wouldn't even really need a specific object.
This is where i'm puzzle, reflection of anatta had helped me being peaceful through letting go of all stress and also developed toleration. At the same time, most worldly concerns seem less worthy to my attention.

reflection wrote: So as I suggested before, see if you can put aside the way you see anatta, at the very least when doing metta meditation. And/or try more samatha practice instead of insight focused reflections. I think it'll work.
Metta,
Reflection
Sadly at the moment, i don't know how to separate samatha from vipassana. In my daily anapanasati practice, i would first focus on the breath but when restless thoughts emerged i still need to contemplate on anatta-annica-dukkha towads the aggregates in order to let go of distracting thoughts. Even in doing metta meditation, restlessness still appears so what can i do stop them other than anatta reflection?

Thanks for the support.
barcsimalsi
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Post by barcsimalsi »

lyndon taylor wrote:It seems to me Buddhism is a graded path, and developing Metta and compassion would normally come first, before tackling non self. The teaching of non self is just one stage on the path, not the end all that makes everything else fall into line IMHO, though it doesn't hurt the rest of our practise, at least it shouldn't.
Before getting to know anatta, i thought i use to have lots of compassion so i was bold enough to skip the metta practice. :tongue:
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