More troubling news

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Re: More troubling news

Postby BlackBird » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:02 am

Sad news.

These people - monks and lay people alike are Buddhists in name and culture only. There needs to be a counter movement from real Buddhists that stands up to these poor misguided people with peaceful non-violent resistance.

"Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves.

- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: More troubling news

Postby Dan74 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:20 am

binocular wrote:On the other hand, if the "radical Buddhists" give up, and Burma becomes a Muslim country in a few decades, then who will be to blame?


NEWSFLASH

Australian church and cultural leaders have met at a closed-door conference aimed at protecting Australian religion and culture from the influx of foreigners. Boycotts and other means of resistance were under discussion. In the meantime bands of vigilantes were formed. One such band was apparently responsible for torching the iconic Chinatown gate in Melbourne's Lt Burke Street as well as firebombing over a dozen Chinese restaurants. There were also reports coming in late last night of an entire community of migrants in Sydney's Western suburbs attacked, their homes torched with multiple casualties including women and children.


Of course this is only made up, because for those of us lucky to be living in a place like Australia, such barbarity is unimaginable. Muslims are a tiny minority in Burma. I understand that they were not particularly noteworthy except for their religion. Other minorities have been waging various struggles for independence and autonomy. But Muslims seem to have been singled out by nationalists and opportunists as fodder for their game. 5% is not going to become a majority in a few decades, this is scaremongering of the lowest kind.
_/|\_
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Re: More troubling news

Postby lyndon taylor » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:47 am

You had me going there for a second, I was just on The ABC news website reading the AUS news and didn't see this, good one!!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: More troubling news

Postby householder » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:38 am

NEWSFLASH

Australian church and cultural leaders have met at a closed-door conference aimed at protecting Australian religion and culture from the influx of foreigners. Boycotts and other means of resistance were under discussion. In the meantime bands of vigilantes were formed. One such band was apparently responsible for torching the iconic Chinatown gate in Melbourne's Lt Burke Street as well as firebombing over a dozen Chinese restaurants. There were also reports coming in late last night of an entire community of migrants in Sydney's Western suburbs attacked, their homes torched with multiple casualties including women and children.


Add:

Power and phone lines were reported to be cut in the affected areas before each attack, whilst eyewitnesses allege that local police failed to intervene. After violence escalated, the Army were called in, who segregated the communities, rounded up foreign nationals and placed them indefinitely in 'protection' camps. Tourism to affected areas of Victoria and NSW is restricted. General sentiment is that such actions are the only way to protect the Australian way of life and religious identity. Proposed solutions include continued segregation and a 2-child limit for non-Australians in NSW and Victoria, for the protection and security of the non-Australian communities and to avoid stoking up further tensions.

Chinese restaurant owners caught up in the violence trying to stop the destruction of their property have been arrested and sentenced from between 2-26 years in prison. No Australian nationals have been charged or sentenced in relation to the violence, which erupted again and further fatalities reported after a woman bumped into an Australian choirboy and refused to apologise. The woman was charged and sentenced to two years in prison. It is not confirmed whether the woman is an Australian citizen or not, but it is widely rumoured that she must be an illegal resident due to her religion.
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Re: More troubling news

Postby BlackBird » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:56 am

Dan74 wrote:
binocular wrote:On the other hand, if the "radical Buddhists" give up, and Burma becomes a Muslim country in a few decades, then who will be to blame?


But Muslims seem to have been singled out by nationalists and opportunists as fodder for their game. 5% is not going to become a majority in a few decades, this is scaremongering of the lowest kind.


Well said.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: More troubling news

Postby householder » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:01 am

Agreed. If there's a concerted, masterminded effort to 'breed out' Buddhism and the Bamar, then they (referring to Muslims of different religions and 'citizenship' status) are doing a bloody awful job of it so far!

PS, that doesn't stop Wirathu, who in his latest speech calls for a Muslim man to have his penis cut off if he marries a Buddhist girl. And yet the Burmese netizens are decrying Time magazine's recent cover article as unfair/unrepresentative...
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Re: More troubling news

Postby Dan74 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:15 am

householder wrote:Agreed. If there's a concerted, masterminded effort to 'breed out' Buddhism and the Bamar, then they (referring to Muslims of different religions and 'citizenship' status) are doing a bloody awful job of it so far!

PS, that doesn't stop Wirathu, who in his latest speech calls for a Muslim man to have his penis cut off if he marries a Buddhist girl. And yet the Burmese netizens are decrying Time magazine's recent cover article as unfair/unrepresentative...


I suspect the negative reaction is typical of the defensiveness when outsiders criticize an Asian society. If it were a Burmese publication, the same people may have been more in agreement. It seemed that many decried or at least shied away from Wirathu's views.
_/|\_
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Re: More troubling news

Postby lyndon taylor » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:32 am

This is the kind of Buddhism we might have had if the Buddha had never left his father's palace and had led the war against the neighbouring tribe as his father intended. The buddha taught the non physical, peaceful resolution of conflict, and was in many ways a pacifist, so this does not seem to me anything to do with Buddhism and everything to do with Nationalism.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: More troubling news

Postby binocular » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:09 pm

householder wrote:
binocular wrote:On the other hand, if the "radical Buddhists" give up, and Burma becomes a Muslim country in a few decades, then who will be to blame?

Do you believe there is a concerted campaign to Islamise the country

Islam is an expansive religion. It has a history of conquering and subjecting other cultures/religions. This is what can be expected from it.


(personally I don't see evidence of this,

and would agree with reasonable and non-violent efforts to oppose it if there was),

That has never worked against Islam.


and do you support the tactics currently being used to counter this perceived threat?

No.

householder wrote:binocular, to be clear, are you supporting the actions of the rioters or the promotion of anti-Islamic fervor and boycotting?

No.
I think though that by now, it's simply too late for any kind of non-violent, peaceful action to still be effective.


Dan74 wrote:Of course this is only made up, because for those of us lucky to be living in a place like Australia, such barbarity is unimaginable. Muslims are a tiny minority in Burma. I understand that they were not particularly noteworthy except for their religion. Other minorities have been waging various struggles for independence and autonomy. But Muslims seem to have been singled out by nationalists and opportunists as fodder for their game. 5% is not going to become a majority in a few decades, this is scaremongering of the lowest kind.

Remember the story of the maluva creeper and the sala tree?

Expect this.
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Re: More troubling news

Postby binocular » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:11 pm

BlackBird wrote:Sad news.

These people - monks and lay people alike are Buddhists in name and culture only. There needs to be a counter movement from real Buddhists that stands up to these poor misguided people with peaceful non-violent resistance.

"Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves.

- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Did the Buddha give this instruction to the whole country of people, regardless at whatever level of attainment on the Buddhist path they are at?
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Re: More troubling news

Postby Dan74 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:18 pm

binocular wrote:
householder wrote:
binocular wrote:On the other hand, if the "radical Buddhists" give up, and Burma becomes a Muslim country in a few decades, then who will be to blame?

Do you believe there is a concerted campaign to Islamise the country

Islam is an expansive religion. It has a history of conquering and subjecting other cultures/religions. This is what can be expected from it.


(personally I don't see evidence of this,

and would agree with reasonable and non-violent efforts to oppose it if there was),

That has never worked against Islam.


and do you support the tactics currently being used to counter this perceived threat?

No.

householder wrote:binocular, to be clear, are you supporting the actions of the rioters or the promotion of anti-Islamic fervor and boycotting?

No.
I think though that by now, it's simply too late for any kind of non-violent, peaceful action to still be effective.


Dan74 wrote:Of course this is only made up, because for those of us lucky to be living in a place like Australia, such barbarity is unimaginable. Muslims are a tiny minority in Burma. I understand that they were not particularly noteworthy except for their religion. Other minorities have been waging various struggles for independence and autonomy. But Muslims seem to have been singled out by nationalists and opportunists as fodder for their game. 5% is not going to become a majority in a few decades, this is scaremongering of the lowest kind.

Remember the story of the maluva creeper and the sala tree?

Expect this.


What you seem to be doing, binocular, is imputing an ideology and an intention to Burmese Muslims. What is your basis for this claim? Do you think they are a bunch of Bin Ladin clones? Have you been to a Muslim country yourself? I've traveled to Turkey recently as well as Indonesia and my impression was that most people there are Muslim by birth and don't actually know too much what it implies. How much more so in the case of poor Rohingya! I wonder if they knew that they were such a frightening threat to the Bamar majority, that they belonged to an expansionist religion, plotting quietly for the day when they take over? Come on, people are just people and most would have very little clue what being Muslim actually means apart from some vague notions about the Prophet, Allah, distant Mecca and praying.

This, to me, sounds too much like the Nazi propaganda against the Jews...
_/|\_
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Re: More troubling news

Postby alan » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:26 pm

Agreed. So much for the so-called "Buddhist Monks" in Myanmar, who have shown themselves to be ruled by ignorance.
Does anyone now really believe Asian Buddhism isn't corrupted?
Last edited by alan on Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: More troubling news

Postby Dan74 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:31 pm

That said, Islam has plenty of great teachings (as well as some not so great) and I know some active Muslims who focus on the positive sides and sidestep or reinterpret the rest. It is problematic because it is a religion of the book, but people have essentially been doing this for centuries - following religions in a sensible positive way by picking the best out of it.
_/|\_
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Re: More troubling news

Postby binocular » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:34 pm

alan wrote:Agreed. So much for the so-called "Buddhist Monks" in Myanmar, who have shown themselves to be ruled by ignorance.

What would you do if you were in their place?
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Re: More troubling news

Postby binocular » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:36 pm

Dan74 wrote:That said, Islam has plenty of great teachings (as well as some not so great) and I know some active Muslims who focus on the positive sides and sidestep or reinterpret the rest. It is problematic because it is a religion of the book, but people have essentially been doing this for centuries - following religions in a sensible positive way by picking the best out of it.

When the going gets tough, such as in the general world crisis, people can be expected show and use their fangs. And some religions equip their followers with fiercer fangs than others.
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Re: More troubling news

Postby alan » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:37 pm

Pathetic and sad to watch this play out again.
Last edited by alan on Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: More troubling news

Postby binocular » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:37 pm

Dan74 wrote:What you seem to be doing, binocular, is imputing an ideology and an intention to Burmese Muslims. What is your basis for this claim?

So you start off with "seem", and by the end of the next sentence, arrive at "claim".


Do you think they are a bunch of Bin Ladin clones? Have you been to a Muslim country yourself? I've traveled to Turkey recently as well as Indonesia and my impression was that most people there are Muslim by birth and don't actually know too much what it implies. How much more so in the case of poor Rohingya! I wonder if they knew that they were such a frightening threat to the Bamar majority, that they belonged to an expansionist religion, plotting quietly for the day when they take over? Come on, people are just people and most would have very little clue what being Muslim actually means apart from some vague notions about the Prophet, Allah, distant Mecca and praying.

Just the sort of thing that the sala tree was told by his friends ...


This, to me, sounds too much like the Nazi propaganda against the Jews...

To me, it sounds like what someone would think who has read about Islam and from Islamic sources and is aware of the actual historical and potential implications.

Look, I think this comes down to opinions. I think it's sad what is going on in Burma (if the reports are anything to go by, even though there is reason to believe that at least some of it is media hype and some is flat out a lie), but I think I can understand how some of the monks and lays there have the sort of "radical" stance they do. That's all.
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Re: More troubling news

Postby alan » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:42 pm

Shame on you, binocular. This behavior is an egregious violation of everything Monks are supposed to do. Can you really not see it?
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Re: More troubling news

Postby binocular » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:44 pm

alan wrote:Does anyone now really believe Asian Buddhism isn't corrupted?

I think the bigger issue is how come some people have for so long worked out of utterly romantic notions about what Asian Buddhism is, could and should be.

Moreover, I think the bigger issue is how come some people have for so long worked out of utterly romantic notions about what life on Earth - in samsara - is, could and should be.

I think that having a more realistic sense of these things to begin with, one wouldn't be surprised over what can happen.
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Re: More troubling news

Postby binocular » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:46 pm

alan wrote:Shame on you, binocular. This behavior is an egregious violation of everything Monks are supposed to do. Can you really not see it?

Who said I don't see it??!

I just don't judge them the way some other people do.


Jumping on the let's-judge-them waggon will somehow make one superior, a proper Buddhist?
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