Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Alex123 » Sat May 04, 2013 6:57 pm

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
Alex123 wrote:But... What would motivate Buddhist (monks or laity) to do all those alleged things?

Greed, hatred, and delusion.


I understand that. But what specific cause in Burma was responsible? People who follow peaceful teaching, and perhaps even bliss out in meditation, don't simply lash out on the neighbor for no reason. What is the motif? To tarnish image of Buddhism?

Other than newspaper articles, how do we know that Buddhists did that? This demands investigation.

Of course monks should NOT be involved in politics, that is an ideal case. But what if they are being forcefully involved (if they are even involved)?

LonesomeYogurt wrote:A materially or politically comfortable live earned with violence is a shaky refuge indeed.


Correct. So why would those Buddhists risk it and risk loosing the status of "peaceful" religion?
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby binocular » Sun May 05, 2013 10:04 am

LonesomeYogurt wrote:I hate to sound dramatic here, but I am absolutely horrified that there are self-identified Buddhists on this board who actually support retaliatory aggression against an ethnic or religious minority.


Apparently, you are not enlightened enough to not make false assumptions about people, and not enlightened enough not to impose stances on people that they do not actually hold.

Where have I said that I was a Buddhist?

Where have I expressed "support [for the] retaliatory aggression against an ethnic or religious minority"?

You're simply assuming these things, taking them for granted. And then you expect me to defend things you merely imagine I said.


It is incredibly dangerous to entertain the thoughts of ill will you are expressing here. Please consider what you are doing before the negative kamma accrued by such an indulgence of aversion and ignorance comes to bear.


Yeah, you should heed that yourself, especially.


LonesomeYogurt wrote:
binocular wrote:The simple point that you don't seem to understand here is that I am merely wondering about what a realistic and skillful response would be to a situation like the one in Burma.

And we are saying that there is only one realistic and skillful response - nonviolence, compassion, gentleness, and equanimity. Apparently that's too hard for some people to accept, but the Blessed One's teachings aren't going to suggest anything else no matter how hard you search, I promise.


By "realistic", I am referring to a realitic assessment of one's faith in the Buddha's teachings.

One can only act in accordance with the faith that one actually has, not in accordance with the faith that one wishes one would have or falsely presumes to have or thinks one should have.


LonesomeYogurt wrote:Of course not, but I'm "enlightened" enough to know that killing is never wholesome.


Keep in mind that Buddhists from other traditions would disagree with you on that.


Paribbajaka wrote:I am honestly trying to remain calm and civil about this


And being calm and civil is very easy if one doesn't assume all sorts of things about the people one is talking to, and instead asks them to clarify any questions that may come up.
Last edited by binocular on Sun May 05, 2013 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby binocular » Sun May 05, 2013 10:07 am

Lazy_eye wrote:None of this looks to me like "justifiable self-defense against an attack". It looks a lot more like a pogrom set off by a minor squabble. SImilar situations occurred in the former Yugoslavia in the 1990s, tearing apart communities that had co-existed for years.


No, it looks like people not taking their religion very seriously to begin with, and then, eventually, facing the consequences of that.

A tiny bit of heedlessness here, a tiny bit of heedlessness there, and over the years and decades, such tiny bits of heedlessness snowball into something huge.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby binocular » Sun May 05, 2013 10:14 am

Mr Man wrote:
Mr Man wrote:It really doesn't take any research. "They" are just people like you and me. Why do you want to spread hatred?

binocular wrote:If a stranger were to come to live in your house, without your invitation, would you just let him?
Would you let him have your house?
Would you consider it an act of hatred if you were to ask him to leave?

Mr Man wrote:binocular Your questions are not relevant.

binocular wrote:Explain. Why aren't they relevant?

I cannot see the relevance of your hypothetic questions to what I had written in reply to alex123 (or to the situation in Burma).


I want to see how much you really stand behind your idealism.

It's easy to say that some people on the other end of the world should be nicer.
But if one cannot set an example of that oneself, then it's lowly to expect that others should.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby binocular » Sun May 05, 2013 10:23 am

Alex123 wrote:I am all for peace and all,

But... What would motivate Buddhist (monks or laity) to do all those alleged things? How do we know that Buddhists really did it? After all those peaceful teachings in Dhammapada and various retreats people go through - why this uncharacteristic violence?

What if those people who did atrocities aren't real Buddhist?

Reflecting on lay life - yes becoming a peaceful meditating monk who minds his own business is the best. But apparently even that is not safe.


As things stand, we don't know what is really happening there.

But even if the newsreports are adequate, I find it easy enough to understand how things can escalate to such proportions.

Like I already noted earlier, I think this can happen as people are not taking their religion very seriously. When practice of one's religion becomes ritualistic, institutionalized, this can have very bad consequences over time. Sure, such people can still make a point of calling themselves members of their religion and demand being perceived as such, they can be avid proselytizers, they can know all the doctrines and have a tight schedule of practices. But still be out of touch with the reality they actually live in - their minds aren't where their feet are.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby pilgrim » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:49 am

I believe much of our impression of the riots in Myanmar is moulded by the Press especially the western press. In every article they rioters are called Buddhist mobs. Why are these thugs identified by the religion of their birth? You don't see the violent rioters of the EDL called Christian mobs even though the EDL has a cross as its logo.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Mr Man » Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:42 am

pilgrim wrote:You don't see the violent rioters of the EDL called Christian mobs even though the EDL has a cross as its logo.
Talking of which I came across this rather odd article yesterday "Right-wing Buddhist leading the campaign to force Muslims out of Burma says he wants his group 'to be like the English Defence League'" http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2333858/Right-wing-Buddhist-leading-campaign-force-Muslims-Burma-says-wants-group-like-English-Defence-League.html
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby chownah » Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:39 pm

pilgrim wrote:I believe much of our impression of the riots in Myanmar is moulded by the Press especially the western press. In every article they rioters are called Buddhist mobs. Why are these thugs identified by the religion of their birth? You don't see the violent rioters of the EDL called Christian mobs even though the EDL has a cross as its logo.

These thugs are identified as Buddhists because what is going on is cultural warfare/genocide.....these thugs identify themselves as being Buddhist and clearly the people they are killing/forcing out of their homes and/or out of the country are Rohingya Muslims. I'm pretty sure that the press coverage does do some moulding but to call these thugs Buddhists is fair and accurate reporting. There has been talk about reviving an old law that limits a Muslim family to two children and Suu Ki has publicly expressed her views on this being unacceptable....But of course she is but one member of parliament among hundreds.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby householder » Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:11 am

pilgrim wrote:I believe much of our impression of the riots in Myanmar is moulded by the Press especially the western press. In every article they rioters are called Buddhist mobs. Why are these thugs identified by the religion of their birth?


They are self-identifying; proudly so. On several occasions in taxis (with and without 969 stickers) I've ended up enduring ridiculous anti-Muslim, pro-Buddhist nationalist diatribes from the drivers based on all the usual ignorance and lack of any critical analysis or thought whatsoever. It's at the stage where I read the Kindle and don't even try or want to talk to the drivers anymore.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby cooran » Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:50 pm

Hello all,

Most Myanmar monks oppose anti-Muslim campaign
http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1 ... m-campaign

With metta
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby householder » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:11 am

All this bullshit got Wirathu propelled onto the front page of TIME this month.

Meanwhile, beyond the 969-plastered teashops, taxis and businesses emanating out from Shwedagon (which, by the way, now has free WIFI that is faster than my home connection and a couple of ATMs scattered around its grounds) and which has rapidly spread throughout the country, the various leading groups of monks seem to be taking different positions on the issue. Or no position, and simply focus on their practice and remind others to do so and remind people of the brahmaviharas and the precepts, which is perhaps the most sensible option these days it seems. The alternative appears to be a drawn-out, high-profile countering of an extremely vocal and seemingly well-resourced minority which would politicise the various sangha groups even further, and there are civil society/interfaith groups that seem to be doing an admirable job on that front already.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby daimond » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:15 am

Myanmar monks say most oppose
anti-Muslim campaign


But at Meikhtila's Zay Yar Bun Buddhist monastery, senior monk Udamme Thara told the Sunday Morning Post: "I know more than a 1,000 Muslims fleeing from their attackers received sanctuary inside our monasteries. I am sure almost all temples provided safety and saved their lives."
The monk lamented that "until a few months ago we [Buddhists and Muslim communities] lived peacefully together".
In Yangon, other monks are organising humanitarian aid for Muslims victimised by the tide of sectarian hatred.
Ashin Issariya, a monk based in the Dhammepiye Temple and Meditation Centre in Yangon, was a leader of the "saffron revolution" of 2007, in which monks led peaceful protests against the dictatorship of that time.

Now, he said, "We are mobilising monks to aid our Muslim brothers. "Many monks and monasteries have provided aid and sanctuary to thousands of displaced Muslims in now in camps."

Ashin Issariya is part of a network of 800 monks, including at least 10 other leaders of the 2007 protests. The network sends regular truckloads of rice, clothes and other aid to the predominantly Muslim victims of the recent violence and has been promoting interfaith dialogue with
Muslim leaders.
In the most recent outbreak of attacks, more than 1,000 Muslims huddled for protection inside a Buddhist monastery in the northeastern city of Lashio in Shan
state.


http://m.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1256663/myanmar-monks-say-most-oppose-anti-muslim-campaign
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby householder » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:40 am

Myanmar monks say most oppose
anti-Muslim campaign


All well and good, but ask a different set of monks and they'll say most support the anti-Muslim campaign, even if tacitly.

Anecdotally, one monk I used to regularly communicate and met with here, when prompted for his views on Meikthila back in March, spewed out some most unpleasant vitriol that seemed to be completely at odds with his many years in the robes, study, practice and what outwardly appeared to be strong saddha, and which appeared to be the current 'line' circulating in several monasteries around Yangon. I don't communicate with that monk anymore.

On the other hand, one of the street sermon sessions on my road shortly after Meitkhila was, I was reliably informed, focused on reminding followers of the principles of metta, non-violence and that this particular township has had Buddhists, Christians, Hindus and Muslims co-existing for decades without any problems.

Numbers aren't precise, but I definitely don't understand the anti-Muslim sentiment to be confined to any sort of a 'tiny' minority of monks and laypeople that we can safely write off as a fringe element. This generational and institutionalised prejudice means this is in many cases hard-wired and won't be going away any time soon no matter how much these so-called reforms are lauded.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Dan74 » Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:39 am

Not to excuse what is happening in any way, but one has to appreciate the power of group-think that can sweep a nation, particularly one without a strong tradition of independent thought.

I mean we have seen it in Yugoslavia, Sri Lanka, Russia, Japan, etc etc

Sometimes even people exemplary in many other ways fall under its spell. So what I am saying is to practice metta not only for the victims but also for the perpetrators and the enablers.

I am wondering if anyone in Burma has mentioned Germany in early 30's...?
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Anagarika » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:33 pm

Dan74 wrote:Not to excuse what is happening in any way, but one has to appreciate the power of group-think that can sweep a nation, particularly one without a strong tradition of independent thought.

I mean we have seen it in Yugoslavia, Sri Lanka, Russia, Japan, etc etc

Sometimes even people exemplary in many other ways fall under its spell. So what I am saying is to practice metta not only for the victims but also for the perpetrators and the enablers.

I am wondering if anyone in Burma has mentioned Germany in early 30's...?


“He sounds like Hitler,” U Htun Than, a 57-year-old Buddhist and former political candidate in Myanmar’s 1990 elections, told me bluntly after we sat through the sermon. “It will be a big problem if his group becomes stronger.”

U Kyaw Kyaw, another local politician from the opposition National League for Democracy (NLD), agreed. “You heard the song: ‘We shouldn’t stay calm. If we stay calm, our race and religion will vanish.’ What is that supposed to mean? They are just agitating people. It has to stop.”

Source: http://www.irrawaddy.org/archives/38170
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Roland » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:23 pm

Posted: 28 June 2013
Most people didn't know who the Rwandans were until it was too late, and 800,000 of them were dead. Right now, the fate of Burma's Rohingya people is hanging by a thread. Racist thugs have distributed leaflets threatening to wipe out this small Burmese minority. Already children have been hacked to death and unspeakable murders committed. All signs are pointing to a coming horror, unless we act.

Genocides happen because we don't get concerned enough until the crime is committed. The Rohingya are a peaceful and very poor people. They're hated because their skin is darker and the majority fear they’re 'taking jobs away'. There are 800,000 of them, and they could be gone if we don't act. We've failed too many peoples, let's not fail the Rohingya.

Burmese President Thein Sein can deploy forces to protect the Rohingya, all he has to do is approve a plan to do it. In days, he’ll arrive in Europe to sell his country’s new openness to trade. If EU leaders greet him with a strong request to protect the Rohingya, he’s likely to do it. Let’s get 1 million voices and images of what’s happening in Burma outside his meetings with key EU heads of state.


To Prime Minister David Cameron and President Francois Hollande:
As citizens deeply concerned about the ongoing violence in Burma, we call on you to press the Burmese President to immediately deploy government forces to protect the Rohingya when you meet with him this month. We urge you to insist he implement such plans to stop the violence as a condition of improved trading relations. You have both spoken repeatedly about the need for early action to prevent genocide and crimes against humanity -- now is the time to live up to those words. The world will be watching what you do to protect one of the most threatened ethnic groups on earth.


Burma: Stop the next Rwanda
"No tree becomes rooted and sturdy unless many a wind assails it. For by its very tossing it tightens its grip and plants its roots more securely; the fragile trees are those that have grown in a sunny valley."

--Seneca the Younger (57 BCE- 65 AD)
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby binocular » Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:48 am

From Bhikkhu Cintita:

http://bhikkhucintita.wordpress.com/2013/07/01/anti-muslim-monks/


A lot of people ask me about reports of anti-Muslim violence in Myanmar, since I live at a Burmese monastery and they assume I might have special inside knowledge. With the appearance of a new cover story in Time magazine on this topic, let me say here what I can figure out about this.

As far as I can see the coverage in the Western press has been worse than deplorable, and at the same time violent incidents are real as is anti-Muslim sentiment in much of the Buddhist population of Myanmar. The involvement of Burmese monks is very small, yet it also does exist.

First, it is important to keep in mind that the phrases Buddhist extremist and Buddhist fundamentalist are meaningless in this context. Any expression of hatred for a group of people is simply unBuddhist. The Buddha never endorsed hatred or violence under any circumstances, ever, even in self-defense. He never condemned other faiths. There is simply nothing in Buddhism, even with the most assiduous cherry-picking, that one could be fundamentalist or extreme about and produce a justification for violence. The violence is entirely in spite of Buddhism, not because of it. Still, we are not all perfect Buddhists.

The social roots of the violence are complex. Many Burmese express surprise that the recent violence has erupted, since “Buddhists and Muslims have lived peacefully together for many years,” to quote an ethnic Mon monk I was talking to about this just today. Still I have heard derogatory comments about Muslims among Burmese since before the present violence. There are differences in the value systems of Islam and Buddhism which may are bound to make some people judgmental. For instance, Buddhists are protective of animal life so most butchers in Myanmar are Muslims. Buddhists purchase meat from the butchers, then look down on them for killing the meat.

Most of the violence has centered in Rakhain State directed against Rohingya Muslims who have immigrated from Bangladesh starting under British rule. It is hard to sort out the dynamics of this conflict, but it seems to involve immigration policy and competition for land resources in an already extremely poor population, particularly as more Rohingyas have entered Burma due to flooding in Bangladesh. It does not help that there are reports of oppression against the Buddhist minority on the Bangladeshi side of the border. Myanmar was marked by ethnic violence primarily as minorities have taken up arms against a brutal regime. Myanmar is also in a period of transition toward a more open society after years of brutal military rule. Many countries that have experienced such a transition seem to experience an abrupt bubbling up of long suppressed tensions. Yugoslavia is an example from the 90′s. In Rakhain State we find violence on both sides, generally following an old pattern of tit-for-tat, exaggerated by rumor, escalating until the majority party does something extreme.

The Western press has tended simply to ignore the social causes and attribute violence directly to Buddhist hatred of Muslims. I see this in story after story. When monks are brought into the stories it is almost always as instigators of violence. When the government is brought into the stories it is almost always as an indifferent or biased party. Rarely covered are the efforts of monks and the government to mitigate the violence or to protect the Muslim population from violence. This is more than inaccurate reporting; it contributes directly to the ignorance and rumors that lead to further violence, implicating the press itself in the violence in the next-to-worst way.

Of course any contribution of monks to hatred or violence is particularly disturbing, to Buddhists around the world, and to me personally as a monk ordained in the Burmese tradition. I know many Burmese monks, a few of which have sometimes to my alarm expressed anti-Muslim sentiments. However I have never heard one endorse violence in any way; consistently they deplore the violence, and many deplore anti-Muslim sentiment as well.

The Western press focuses repeatedly on this same monk, Ashin Wirathu, who appears on the new cover of Time magazine as the “face of Buddhist terror.” However I have never found in the Western stories anywhere where Ashin Wirathu has directly advocated violence against Muslims (let me know if you know of such a quote), rather his agenda seems to be a peaceful economic boycott against Muslim businesses. His rhetoric is clearly hateful, and he is reported for reasons I cannot make any logical sense of to call himself a Buddhist Osama bin Laden. But I don’t think this qualifies as terrorism. Incidentally, if a monk advocates an act of killing and thereby causes someone else to carry out that act, that monk has thereby just disrobed, according to the ancient monastic code. Ashin Wirathu certainly knows this.

I would like to highlight my own preceptor, Sitagu Sayadaw, as a more moderate, typical and influential monastic voice in Myanmar than Ashin Wirathu. I have never seen Sitagu Sayadaw mentioned in the Western press with regard to this issue in spite of his eminence. The following are links to a press release that he issued concerning the violence, in somewhat imperfect English, and a story from the South China Morning Post in which he is quoted at the end of a story that gives voice to other sensible monks as well.

Communal Violence Condemned by Sitagu Sayadaw

Myanmar Monks Say Most Oppose Anti-Muslim Campaign

As Buddhists our primary task is the perfection of human character. We become mindful of every intention and seek to address any tendency toward greed, hatred or delusion. Except for the rare arahant, we fall short of the aspiration, but we keep trying in a very complex and ensnarling world. Part of this task is the perfection of kindness, at which point it shines on all without bias, even on those who might wish us harm.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Dan74 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:35 pm

Thank you for sharing - interesting to hear this perspective. Though having only read Western media up until now, I got pretty much the same impression as the Venerable conveys. Maybe it's my filters or maybe it's that the media has not been as bad as he says. Of course there are the usual simplifications and exaggerations - WIrathu is not a Buddhist Bin Laden, but by virtue of being the most prominent face of the anti-Muslim campaign, which has included terror and murder, he has understandably become associated with the worst of it.

Has he preached restraint? Has he urged the people to refrain from violence? I hope so, but even if he has, divisive speech, broad-brush smears and fostering prejudice can only be expected to lead to more bloodshed. So while not advocating the killings, I think he bears some responsibility for them.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby binocular » Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:40 pm

It's easy to judge and condemn others when one's own arse is not on the line.




At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. When you see someone who has fallen on hard times, overwhelmed with hard times, you should conclude: 'We, too, have experienced just this sort of thing in the course of that long, long time.'

"Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Ajatashatru » Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:48 pm

Seeing some of the posts of these members makes me wonder what fantasy world you guys are living in? I am from India and Northeast India (resembling SE Asia ethnically) is OVERRRUN with Muslim Bangladeshi infiltrators (like Rohingyas). Is anybody aware of how Buddhism was wiped out in Kargil (kashmir) within a century by Muslim intermarriage and overbreeding? Are you guys aware that in India, wherever there are more Muslims than Hindus: kidnappings, rapings, murders, and conversion of kafirs by Muslims is the norm? Have you heard about the plight of Buddhists in nearby Bangladesh.

Let me ask you guys something. Does anyone condemn the bombing of Germany in World War 2? Surely a lot of innocent people lost their lives? But you justify it by saying there was a war going on. Like it or not, the civilized world (especially us belonging to Dharma traditions) are in a war with pan-Islam. There will be innocent blood spilled in a war. We have to deal with it and stop pointing fingers while roosting in our ivory towers.

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