"The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Mr Man
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by Mr Man »

A couple of questions: Is the book aimed just at the culture within a specific monastery or within the "Pa Auk tradition" as a whole? Isn't Na Uyana a "Ramañña Nikāya" temple where at present they teach "Pa Auk" style meditation rather than part of a Burmese monastic tradition? Is the "Pa Auk tradition" a monastic grouping with it's own monastic culture or is it just a system of meditation?

We do all need to be circumspect when we place our faith in particular institutions. Misconduct should really not come as that much of a surprize - why would it be otherwise?
alan
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by alan »

Sad, but true--all religions attract losers, those emotionally empty, and layabouts. It's even worse in cultures that encourage Monk-worship.
Take off your blinders, friends. We have a real problem here. Buddhism is dying because of people like these.
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Hickersonia
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by Hickersonia »

BlackBird wrote:
Hickersonia wrote:what precisely are we to do about it? I don't see how any facts will be gleamed on the matter
Really, the reason is to let people who might be intending to stay there or ordain there (as I once was intending) know what might be taking place there. It's important that they know that this account exists, and there is a value in attempting to find out if there is any truth to the matter.
OK. If that is the case, I'd say this is a case of "mission accomplished," then.

I agree that the allegation should be known to potential long-term visitors. I just wasn't sure if you were proposing something more dramatic should be done when we really can't do anything except raise awareness to the possibility that there is chaos going on there.

Thanks you, friend.
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Dan74
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by Dan74 »

alan wrote:Sad, but true--all religions attract losers, those emotionally empty, and layabouts. It's even worse in cultures that encourage Monk-worship.
Take off your blinders, friends. We have a real problem here. Buddhism is dying because of people like these.
I am sure there are corrupt monks and even whole temples, Alan. Here in Australia, the temples I know a little about seem to be doing quite well. As for Thailand, Sri Lanka, etc, what can we do?

About this particular case, I have been around long enough to know that not everything that circulates around can be trusted and I would really hate for people to be unfairly depicted. These stories can spread very quickly and ruin people's lives, if the laity turns away from the temple due to rumours, for instance.

To give some context to my skepticism, just the other week I was visiting a prison here. A middle-aged respectable looking inmate came to the Buddhist service and proceeded to reveal horrific things about a respected Thai monk resident in Melbourne. He knew a lot about him, rolled off many details, but mixed in with the fact, what gradually emerged was nightmarish fantasy. Along with me, there was a Zen monk there who knew the monk in question quite well. Bit by bit it became clear that the inmate was not mentally sound and was likely there for stalking and harassing the poor bhikkhu.
_/|\_
alan
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by alan »

One crazy prisoner does not discredit the thesis.
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Dan74
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by Dan74 »

alan wrote:One crazy prisoner does not discredit the thesis.
Which thesis?
_/|\_
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Crazy cloud
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by Crazy cloud »

old saying by Lou Reed - not a buddhist to my knowledge, but then again; it's really up to you and to your own heart - just keep it open!
belive none of what you hear, and half of what you see ..
:heart:

Some really silly monkeybusiness will never ever make me loose my own experience and taste with the truth og these teachings, and there are numerous outstandig ajhans and laypeople, and not the least, all of those living creatures you experiences througout every day and every moment - who you can find all the inspiration you need. How about this; http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=17616 - I loved it, and thats buddhisme to me

I remember Ajhan Brahm saying this; let the karma get those bastards .. :tongue:

So let it go! :console:

:candle:
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
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BlackBird
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by BlackBird »

Dan74 wrote:
alan wrote:Sad, but true--all religions attract losers, those emotionally empty, and layabouts. It's even worse in cultures that encourage Monk-worship.
Take off your blinders, friends. We have a real problem here. Buddhism is dying because of people like these.
I am sure there are corrupt monks and even whole temples, Alan. Here in Australia, the temples I know a little about seem to be doing quite well. As for Thailand, Sri Lanka, etc, what can we do?

About this particular case, I have been around long enough to know that not everything that circulates around can be trusted and I would really hate for people to be unfairly depicted. These stories can spread very quickly and ruin people's lives, if the laity turns away from the temple due to rumours, for instance.

To give some context to my skepticism, just the other week I was visiting a prison here. A middle-aged respectable looking inmate came to the Buddhist service and proceeded to reveal horrific things about a respected Thai monk resident in Melbourne. He knew a lot about him, rolled off many details, but mixed in with the fact, what gradually emerged was nightmarish fantasy. Along with me, there was a Zen monk there who knew the monk in question quite well. Bit by bit it became clear that the inmate was not mentally sound and was likely there for stalking and harassing the poor bhikkhu.
It is entirely possible this text has be written by a person in a similar circumstance. For all we know the author could have been an absolute nut case, but obviously a very cunning one with a great imagination and attention to detail.

All the more reason to be having this discussion, because if enough attention is drawn to it, we might get an answer from someone who has personal knowledge of the veracity of these claims.

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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binocular
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by binocular »

BlackBird wrote:All the more reason to be having this discussion, because if enough attention is drawn to it, we might get an answer from someone who has personal knowledge of the veracity of these claims.
And then we'd have to unconditionally trust that person ...

BlackBird wrote:Really, the reason is to let people who might be intending to stay there or ordain there (as I once was intending) know what might be taking place there. It's important that they know that this account exists, and there is a value in attempting to find out if there is any truth to the matter.
I would think that anyone who is interested in staying at a monastery would first check it out personally. Such as by first staying at a hotel and visiting the monastery for a week or so. And only afterwards, if everything seemed alright, go to stay at the monastery, if such accomodation is possible.

If something awkward is going on at a place, there are usually signs of it visible, even to the casual visitor.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
householder
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by householder »

Haven't read yet, but do any of the allegations top evidence of certain Myanmar monks (ostenibly, at least, they're monks) running around with swords or preaching anti-Muslim hate speech?
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BlackBird
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by BlackBird »

binocular wrote: I would think that anyone who is interested in staying at a monastery would first check it out personally.
People often travel great distances for the express purpose of staying at a particular monastery, to study under a particular teacher or method. So you would think wrong my friend ;)
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
binocular
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by binocular »

BlackBird wrote:People often travel great distances for the express purpose of staying at a particular monastery, to study under a particular teacher or method. So you would think wrong my friend
If people think that a Buddhist monastery is much like a tourist destination, and that if they're not happy with it they can demand some kind of refund or compensation for their dissatisfaction, that's their thing ...
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
EmptyShadow
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by EmptyShadow »

Hi BlackBird,
I just noticed your post in this topic http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=16995
BlackBird wrote:I've heard good things about Na Uyana.
and I couldnt help but think how easy our view is shaped by what we hear or read from other people. :smile:
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BlackBird
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by BlackBird »

binocular wrote:
BlackBird wrote:People often travel great distances for the express purpose of staying at a particular monastery, to study under a particular teacher or method. So you would think wrong my friend
If people think that a Buddhist monastery is much like a tourist destination, and that if they're not happy with it they can demand some kind of refund or compensation for their dissatisfaction, that's their thing ...
You've arrived at a strange conclusion given what I said. Nobody said anything about tourist destinations. I've never heard of anyone demanding refunds or asking for compensation. But I've met plenty of people who have travelled great distances to practice meditation under a particular teacher of whom they have heard good things about. I did so myself, and if I had not come across the teachings of Ven Nyanavira I probably would still be there today.

EmptyShadow wrote:Hi BlackBird,
I just noticed your post in this topic http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=16995
BlackBird wrote:I've heard good things about Na Uyana.
and I couldnt help but think how easy our view is shaped by what we hear or read from other people. :smile:
Well yes

You're right. When I was in Sri Lanka, if you asked anyone about good meditation monasteries it was either Meetirigala, Na Uyana or Kanduboda. Having stayed at Meetirigala and Kanduboda, Na Uyana was the only one I didn't make it to. I visited a kiwi monk in the central highlands of Sri Lanka in Laggala who was quite insistent that he take me to Na Uyana and that I would be able to ordain there quite easily. He was full of praise for it, so naturally until I came across this I was full of praise for it also, not having any reason to distrust the views of the venerable Kiwi monk, who was rather famous in Sri Lanka as a yogi.

Nevermind such is the way of the world.

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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robertk
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by robertk »

I found the book quite interesting. I guess after almost 30 years travelling in Asia such things are pretty much what I have seen for myself: although I must say it seems rare that others see it .
I remember when I knew the monk Phra Yantra quite well. He was a very friendly monk who I personally liked but I never had any delusions about his supposed 'arahant ' status. I even liked it that I had some reflected shine due to my knowing him.
He was so popular that on holidays one of his temples in kanchanaburi attracted so many pilgrims that the traffic jams built for up to 20 kms away..
then when the sex scandal broke his supporters and the majority of Thailand were in absolute hate against the women who accused him. It took about 2 years before it became clear that they were telling the truth. I was never surprised because he was simply a monk with no special status (IMHO) from what he said to me and from what I could see of his understanding. But for some Buddhist it was like he had taken away their faith in the Dhamma.

Th phrase in the book about "one month in kandabodha, 6 months in the mental institution ' is one I haven't heard for a long time but I think it is good the writer mentions it. So many new Buddhist have very unrealistic desires for attainments that can really screw them up badly. When I was staying at the Godwin Samaratne (sp?) meditation center near Kandy he told me how one of his main jobs is visiting the various mental institutions in the area to counsel the inmates who were there after doing intensive meditation courses. Some of then would shake in fear simply at seeing his white anagarika uniform - which reminded them of their time at the center apparently.
Which is worse : the ones who deludedly think they have made some special progress, or the despairing ones who think they can't make progress? Both of which we see the author mentions in his book. Anyway I think it can help the over confident, the one who wants attainments, to see some of the more obvious pitfalls.
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