YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

Samadhi (best English translation?) - Page 5 - Dhamma Wheel

Samadhi (best English translation?)

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

User avatar
Kumara
Posts: 615
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:14 am

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Kumara » Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:36 am

I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

frank k
Posts: 136
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby frank k » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:17 pm

So what are the top choices of best translation of Samādhi? What about ekaggata?
"Concentration" has the advantage of being commonly understood, that is a Buddhist seeing the word concentration usually associates it as being translated from samaadhi.

I don't like how Thanissaro Bhikkhu sometimes uses different english words to translate the same pali word. for example, in step 11 of anapanasati he translates samādham cittam as "steadying the mind" , which made me think the pali text was using a different word than samaadhi. This is not to say he's right or wrong in doing that, I understand the problem of the being consistent with pali/english translation is you can miss subtle nuances in meaning.

What are the best candidates for ekaggata? i know the reasons people don't like one-pointed. In another thread Ven. Kumara was saying "one-placed" would be a better literal translation than one-pointed.
What about "one-focused" or "single-focused"? Less literal but clear in meaning, and still relatively easy to make connection with pali ekaggata.

What pali word is "unification of mind" associated with? I thought it was with samādhi but I thought I saw somewhere someone using that phrase for ekaggata.
http://www.audtip.org Audio Sutta Recordings

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby daverupa » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:28 pm


User avatar
Kumara
Posts: 615
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:14 am

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Kumara » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:02 am

I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 4918
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:20 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby daverupa » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:52 am


User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 4918
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:23 pm

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby daverupa » Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:42 pm


User avatar
Kumara
Posts: 615
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:14 am

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Kumara » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:21 am

I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Sylvester » Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:58 am


User avatar
Kumara
Posts: 615
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:14 am

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Kumara » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:21 am

I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Sylvester » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:35 am

But Bhante, what is the "popular" understanding as such? You'll forgive me if I express uncertainty, given the proliferation of the anti-absorption models online. Certainly, the "traditional" model holds its own within certain monastic environments, but I get the impression that the more popular model is for jhāna where there is :

- 5 sense awareness;
- thinking and rumination.

This does not even begin to factor in opinion from scholarly quarters (eg Wynne) that the absorption model found in the suttas is an artifact of contamination intruding into the Buddha's earliest teachings. I would exclude this model from the "popular" equation, since this line argues that the absorption suttas have suffered doctrinal contamination, which I think the "popular" school would find too radical an idea.

Pls excuse my reticence on my experiences. I simply prefer to restrict the discussion to what the discourses say. I don't think it's as hopeless as simply going around theories, since we are actually scrutinising each theory against the Gold Standard, ie the suttas.

I would just mention that I'm not a big fan of the Vsm model, but if I were to make a principled disagreement with the Vsm model, I do not brush it off simply by saying, "Oh that comes from the Vsm". I reject something only if I can demonstrate a clear inconsistency between an exegetical proposition with (i) a sutta proposition, or (ii) a reasonable inference from a sutta proposition.

All I would volunteer is that, having experienced the states described by the "popular" model, I have rejected them as being inconsistent with what I think the suttas say. The said emphasis is a recognition that I am not the last word on how suttas should be read and interpreted, but I would expect a great deal of linguistic rigour to be exerted with the texts. As a matter of principle, I do not allow the primary material to be lensed through later material, which is why you'll be hard-pressed to find me resorting to the Vsm.

User avatar
Kumara
Posts: 615
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:14 am

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Kumara » Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:28 am

I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Sylvester » Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:13 am


frank k
Posts: 136
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby frank k » Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:36 pm

dear Ven. Kumara and Sylvester,

I have no idea what "popular' and "orthodox theravada" means. I do know what is meant by "sutta jhana" and "vism. jhana", but I wonder how much miscommunication happens on the jhana debates because it's not always clear what people are referring to. Another example, Thanissaro translates jhana as absorption, but so does Anaalayo and others but they have very different view of jhana. Also many people don't fall into the neat categories of "sutta jhana" or "vism. jhana". Some believe both are valid models, some have a hybrid model.

This must be why so many of us are interested in finding better translations for some of the key words associated with samaadhi. At this point I think that's not going to happen, probably the clearest way is to use pali terms and english in parenthesis or in footnotes.
http://www.audtip.org Audio Sutta Recordings

User avatar
Kumara
Posts: 615
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:14 am

Jhana -- Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Kumara » Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:29 am

Last edited by Kumara on Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Sylvester » Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:57 am

Last edited by Sylvester on Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Jhana -- Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby Sylvester » Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:26 am


frank k
Posts: 136
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby frank k » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:17 pm

Hi Sylvester, "sutta jhana" and "vism. jhana" at least is clear on the point that with "vism.", one uses visual light nimitta to enter into a jhana, and that one has to emerge before one is able to think and do vipassana, something which you won't find in the suttas. Also how vitakka and vicara are defined in vism. is clearly different than the sutta passages that explicitly state the vitakka and vicara being nekkhamma, abyapada, avihimsa (or their opposites) when talking about the presence and absence of vitakka and vicara for the first and second jhanas.

I agree that making better dictionary definitions for key pali terms alone is not going to solve communications problems, but surely there's something we can do as a community to facilitate better understanding of what these terms mean when talking about different interpretations of jhana.
http://www.audtip.org Audio Sutta Recordings

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:45 pm



Return to “Pāli”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine